Progressives, part 3...

posted by gut

To be fair, the Dems and their media began a full court press on obstructing and removing him from office the day after he was elected.  They also, along with Hillary, claimed he stole the election colluding with Russia...The only real difference is they stopped short of committing fraud and attempting to stop the certification.

So if I'm assigning blame for the current state of affairs, it's like 60% Trump and 40% Democrats.

I mean, almost much every election the Dems have lost, going back to Gore, involves denials and claims of voter suppression, disenfranchisement and gerrymandering.  But, sure, Trump is the sole reason we are where we are today.

That is the sad state of affairs in politics. None of these so-called "leaders" are ever willing to take responsibility for their party's failings and think logical things like "We need to shift our agenda to reflect society's wants." or "Maybe the issues that most fire up our core base don't reflect those of the general public." Instead it's a combination of "THEY CHEATEDED!!!!" and "It's not our fault; them stupid voters just got misled by the opposition's ad campaign, so their votes shouldn't really matter, should they?"

And then they just keep focusing on what they want to focus on and continue to act shocked when that shit falls flat, so they focus more on what judges they can post whenever they have the power to, so they can use them to get their way no matter what.

posted by Heretic

And then they just keep focusing on what they want to focus on and continue to act shocked when that shit falls flat, so they focus more on what judges they can post whenever they have the power to, so they can use them to get their way no matter what.

And I left out the Repubs are always crying about voter fraud, even though nothing significant has even been found.

But, to your point, I feel like the state of political discourse the past 20 years closely mirrors the rage and disaster porn that dominates the media.  Chicken/egg, maybe, but the pols that seem to have influence and get all the press these days are generally a vile, insufferable bunch.

Trump's rise is, IMO, more a reflection of the times than some movement he started or fueled.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

I think in general, this board gives Trump a pass saying oh he isn't that bad and is just like Biden when in reality Trump is saying and doing things that would be a lot worse than anything Biden is doing now.

The last Presidential Republican I voted for? 2004 Bush. 

But, I have voted for Larry Hogan twice when I lived in Maryland and voted for Republicans in Congressional and Senate races over the years too. 

20yrs ago? Oh, I got you beat. My last dem vote was for Clinton lol

So, I just found out that Dems are now going to try to ban private militias. 

Has this been tried before?

posted by CenterBHSFan

So, I just found out that Dems are now going to try to ban private militias. 

Has this been tried before?

Not sure how well thought out that is.  Seems like it could be used to jail a ton of "mostly peaceful" protestors.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Created the entire mess of election doubting that permeates almost all republican philosophy.  I think this has permanently weakened our country and amplified the political divide exponentially.  The fact that no one trusts anyone or anything is in large part due to his conspiracy BS.

Biden’s a chump, don’t get me wrong.  But Trump has done plenty of harm by putting his ego ahead of the good of our nation.

You believe Trump created the mess of election doubting?

Did you pay no attention to the mess after the Bush/Gore election? Or how about the Ds after Hilary lost to Trump?

All of them are bad, but to act like Trump started the election doubting mess is forgetting major recent historical events.

posted by jmog

You believe Trump created the mess of election doubting?

Did you pay no attention to the mess after the Bush/Gore election? Or how about the Ds after Hilary lost to Trump?

All of them are bad, but to act like Trump started the election doubting mess is forgetting major recent historical events.

You’re right, he didn’t start it.  But he made it exponentially worse by being a sitting president pushing it hard and leveling specific unfounded accusations.

There’ve always been people who don’t trust other people or institutions.  But he normalized distrust in practically everything.  In my opinion, he made the environment and discourse far worse than anyone prior (in my lifetime at least).

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

You’re right, he didn’t start it.  But he made it exponentially worse by being a sitting president pushing it hard and leveling specific unfounded accusations..

Not sure I completely agree with that.  Trump didn't destroy trust in the media, the media did that all by themselves.  What he did do was, unintentionally, expose the bias and agenda in the media for people who haven't really paid attention.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

You’re right, he didn’t start it.  But he made it exponentially worse by being a sitting president pushing it hard and leveling specific unfounded accusations.

Downplaying what the Ds and Hillary did for basically all 4 years of Trump is odd to me.

They made up that the sitting President colluded with a foreign adversary and stole an election.

Russia Collusion was a Hoax started by the DNC and Hillary. I don't see how what Trump is doing is "exponentially" worse. Its bad, probably as bad, but not WAY worse than accusing the the sitting President of colluding with a foreign government to steal an election with no actual evidence is asinine.

That is just as bad as the BS Trump did after the election.

You may feel one is a little worse than the other, and that can be debated, but saying one is exponentially worse than the other is just asinine.

posted by jmog

Downplaying what the Ds and Hillary did for basically all 4 years of Trump is odd to me.

They made up that the sitting President colluded with a foreign adversary and stole an election.

Russia Collusion was a Hoax started by the DNC and Hillary. I don't see how what Trump is doing is "exponentially" worse. Its bad, probably as bad, but not WAY worse than accusing the the sitting President of colluding with a foreign government to steal an election with no actual evidence is asinine.

That is just as bad as the BS Trump did after the election.

You may feel one is a little worse than the other, and that can be debated, but saying one is exponentially worse than the other is just asinine.

It’s not an either/or.  I think most of these politicians are terrible.  I think Trump has done a lot of damage - more than any sitting president in my lifetime.  

Calling people’s opinions who differ from you “asinine” is a sure sign of dumbassery.

posted by gut

Not sure I completely agree with that.  Trump didn't destroy trust in the media, the media did that all by themselves.  What he did do was, unintentionally, expose the bias and agenda in the media for people who haven't really paid attention.

Maybe not the media, but any institution in general.  It’s now very typical that a whole segment has to see some conspiracy and dark intentions behind practically everything that is said, sold, offered, acted upon, etc.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Maybe not the media, but any institution in general.  It’s now very typical that a whole segment has to see some conspiracy and dark intentions behind practically everything that is said, sold, offered, acted upon, etc.

Obama and Biden did their share of shady shit, just didn't cross the line like Trump.

And you can include Bush with the whole WMD thing, though I think there are extenuating circumstances and nuance there that don't crack the established narrative in the public discourse.

By the way, if Trump somehow manages to win in 2024, it will be interesting to see just how far the "defenders of Democracy" will go to save the Republic...

posted by gut

Obama and Biden did their share of shady shit, just didn't cross the line like Trump.

And you can include Bush with the whole WMD thing, though I think there are extenuating circumstances and nuance there that don't crack the established narrative in the public discourse.

By the way, if Trump somehow manages to win in 2024, it will be interesting to see just how far the "defenders of Democracy" will go to save the Republic...

I agree about Bush, Obama and Biden.  I think if Trump wins, it means we have to listen to four years of crazy ass shit about draining the swamp and restoring America while nothing much happens - unless you’re married to his kid in which case you’ll be asked for your expertise in designing a lasting world peace before you move to Fisher Island with your Saudi “consulting” money.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

I agree about Bush, Obama and Biden.  I think if Trump wins, it means we have to listen to four years of crazy ass shit about draining the swamp and restoring America while nothing much happens - unless you’re married to his kid in which case you’ll be asked for your expertise in designing a lasting world peace before you move to Fisher Island with your Saudi “consulting” money.

Ehhh, Jared's track record on foreign diplomacy is just about as good as all other diplomats the last 20 years, combined.

Which isn't saying much.  But, point of contention, Kusnher didn't receiver "consulting" money, but investment into a real estate enterprise which he has had, and has demonstrated, actual ability.  It's not remotely comparable to the shakedowns Hunter was collecting, if you were going there (and we all know you were).

posted by gut

Obama and Biden did their share of shady shit, just didn't cross the line like Trump.

And you can include Bush with the whole WMD thing, though I think there are extenuating circumstances and nuance there that don't crack the established narrative in the public discourse.

By the way, if Trump somehow manages to win in 2024, it will be interesting to see just how far the "defenders of Democracy" will go to save the Republic...

I'm not really able to say if Obama or Biden crossed the line like Trump did or not. None of the medias carried on with them in the way that they carried on over Trump. 

For example, the medias censoring and banning public discourse never happened with them as it happened with Trump. That is why the Twitter Files were so damming. Some conspiracy theories, as it turned out, weren't conspiracy theories at all, but actually happened. Proof positive that last months conspiracy theories are yesterday's facts. 

Let me point out, highlight and repeat the word "some' for those in the back who will pretend that word wasn't used so they can try to generate the lulz. 

posted by gut

Ehhh, Jared's track record on foreign diplomacy is just about as good as all other diplomats the last 20 years, combined.

Which isn't saying much.  But, point of contention, Kusnher didn't receiver "consulting" money, but investment into a real estate enterprise which he has had, and has demonstrated, actual ability.  It's not remotely comparable to the shakedowns Hunter was collecting, if you were going there (and we all know you were).

Not an either/or.  But for a guy who made his entire theme about getting rid of unqualified people and nepotism, he’s no better than any others.  And if you don’t think the money Jared lives off from Saudi Arabia didn’t come because he pedaled influence, I don’t know what to say.  Hunter Biden’s horrible - don’t get me wrong.  But we were talking about Trump here.  He’s just as much apart of the “swamp” as those he clings to work against.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

It’s not an either/or.  I think most of these politicians are terrible.  I think Trump has done a lot of damage - more than any sitting president in my lifetime.  

Calling people’s opinions who differ from you “asinine” is a sure sign of dumbassery.

You said what Trump did vs the DNC when he was President was exponentially worse  that’s definitely asinine.

Sorry if it hurt your feelings  

posted by jmog

You said what Trump did vs the DNC when he was President was exponentially worse  that’s definitely asinine.

Sorry if it hurt your feelings  

Don't know about worse, what bothers me is that I'd like to expect my "side" to behave better than the opponents. Instead we lower ourselves to their level, and we tolerate it and some (QQ) actually embrace it.

posted by queencitybuckeye

Don't know about worse, what bothers me is that I'd like to expect my "side" to behave better than the opponents. Instead we lower ourselves to their level, and we tolerate it and some (QQ) actually embrace it.

100% agree. Both sides suck donkey balls and neither is exponentially worse than the other.

The last 3  or so POTUS elections have truly been lesser of 2 evils rather than choosing between 2 decent people who you happen to align closer to one of them  

posted by jmog

You said what Trump did vs the DNC when he was President was exponentially worse  that’s definitely asinine.

Sorry if it hurt your feelings  

You’ve not managed to hurt my feelings on this or any other thread.  It’s been my experience that people who call their opponents stupid in a discussion are the people who tend to yell louder to make their point.  Those type of people are often blind to their own flaws and generally not as intelligent as they seem to think they are.

I think Trump’s been a much worse influence on our nation than many other leaders who have been plenty horrible in their own right.  That’s my opinion based upon my experience.  It’s not a zero sum game.  I think Biden is a loser and favor maker.  I think Hillary is an egotistical narcissist.  I just happen to hold the belief that Trump dumped more shit in the pool than they did.  He was in a powerful enough position to do this - others haven’t been.  This is partly due to his blind followers being more numerous than those others in my opinion.  I believe history will judge him to be a horrible blight on our country