posted by majorsparkYou can keep telling yourself that. You are in a very small minority. Whatever it takes I guess. I am not talking about the the Taliban taking over Afghanistan but if you think the clusterfuck we have all seen unfold over the last couple of months was unavoidable and going to happen no matter who are leaders are, I don't know what to tell you. If it was so predictable as you now say one would think there would be some preparation.
jfc dude lol
Certainly among the worst moments of all time in our military history. I am glad the (now-ex) Marine called them out on it; took a helluva lot of courage to take the stand he has taken.
Nearly a week later, and still no resignations or firings. What a fucking disgrace.
posted by like_thatSo far the best defense (deflection) of Biden and Kamala completely botching this evacuation plan comes down to the following:
A. It’s Trump’s fault
B. This was going to happen anyway
C. Both
Yikes…
One can have a view that Biden made the overall right strategic call, but botched the actual execution. The fall of the Afghan government was going to happen. The failure by everyone was not seeing it was going to happen as fast as it did. A series of tactical errors led to this mess we are in now.
I'm interested here in the libertarian take, as you all have been in favor of leaving/ reducing American forces for years. Would you all have done things differently and if so how?
posted by majorspark6 of the 13 killed were 20yrs old. The oldest was one 31 yr old staff sergeant. The rest were less than 25. One was a 23 year old female maintenance technician. Likely they had no combat experience. Why were they manning the gates? Why was there not experienced special forces establishing a perimeter outside the gates? Why did we abandon a military airbase that was designed to protect against these types of attacks?
These kids were left to the wolves for political reasons. Most fresh out of boot camp. Now dead because of their inept leaders.
Now there are valid points. Why wasn't Bagram kept open? Why were not more SIV removed before the fall of the government? Experts and human rights advocates have been on the administration for months saying that there needed to be urgency on getting people out. As you asked, why were there not more senior people at the check points? How did this bomber get access at this stage? All good questions.
posted by QuakerOatsCertainly among the worst moments of all time in our military history. I am glad the (now-ex) Marine called them out on it; took a helluva lot of courage to take the stand he has taken.
Nearly a week later, and still no resignations or firings. What a fucking disgrace.
Read a fucking history book. This isn't even in the top 10.
posted by ptown_trojans_1Well first, common jackass sense says you get the civilians, weapons & machinery out first THEN the military but not this dolt (Biden). Getting out of there isn't really the issue, it's HOW it was done. Pure amateur hour.
I'm interested here in the libertarian take, as you all have been in favor of leaving/ reducing American forces for years. Would you all have done things differently and if so how?
posted by ptown_trojans_1One can have a view that Biden made the overall right strategic call, but botched the actual execution. The fall of the Afghan government was going to happen. The failure by everyone was not seeing it was going to happen as fast as it did. A series of tactical errors led to this mess we are in now.
I'm interested here in the libertarian take, as you all have been in favor of leaving/ reducing American forces for years. Would you all have done things differently and if so how?
I wouldn't ask you to go thru a bunch a pages to see my previous takes on this, but I said from the beginning it was the right move to withdraw (which I have supported for over a decade now). I would never bash Biden for withdrawing. I would say the majority of this thread supported withdrawal and the majority of this thread understands both Republicans and Democrats have a lot of blame to share for the past 20 years (Biden doesn't get a free pass for his 8 years with Obama). With that being said, as you already stated Biden deserves to be severely criticized for the execution.
I don't have the answers on how it should have been done, but I do know it would be very hard to set the bar any lower than the Biden Admin and passing the blame to the former guy is a complete joke. We were there for 20 years, and Biden unilaterally changed Trump's deadline. Don't try to sell me this bullshit that his "hands were tied," and downplay it as if this was how it was always going to go down.
posted by kizer permanentejfc dude lol
Looks like you have reported my post.
Welp, the war is officially over. Time for Dementia Joe to come out and spike the football.
posted by like_that
I wouldn't ask you to go thru a bunch a pages to see my previous takes on this, but I said from the beginning it was the right move to withdraw (which I have supported for over a decade now). I would never bash Biden for withdrawing. I would say the majority of this thread supported withdrawal and the majority of this thread understands both Republicans and Democrats have a lot of blame to share for the past 20 years (Biden doesn't get a free pass for his 8 years with Obama). With that being said, as you already stated Biden deserves to be severely criticized for the execution.
I don't have the answers on how it should have been done, but I do know it would be very hard to set the bar any lower than the Biden Admin and passing the blame to the former guy is a complete joke. We were there for 20 years, and Biden unilaterally changed Trump's deadline. Don't try to sell me this bullshit that his "hands were tied," and downplay it as if this was how it was always going to go down.
The only part of it that Biden can really blame Trump for is the whole "release thousands of Taliban as part of the cease-fire treaty" bit. Releasing tons of prisoners from a non-ally force we've been at odds with for ages was just a horrible move and regardless of the CC's of the world and their "4D chess, he talks tough and they'd know what's what!" bullshit, that never was going to work because when the fuck has any of our "give something to get something" actions ever worked in that general part of the world?
Which then goes back to Joe, considering how he moved Trump's "get out" timetable from May to recently, likely in order to make it his accomplishment because that's politics, and seemingly did nothing whatsoever to actually make it work, or at least not be a complete shit-show where they have tons of our stuff simply because they decided to test how well-organized we were in the face of aggressive action.
posted by ptown_trojans_1Read a fucking history book. This isn't even in the top 10.
History isn’t done writing the chapter yet. Wait till the Taliban and other terrorist groups fuck out the whole Middle East.
I see where the DC swamp and media are already lining up to try to write their own. It will start with a disgusting 9/11 day where they somehow try to claim a W on this
posted by ptown_trojans_1Read a fucking history book. This isn't even in the top 10.
False.
Again.
posted by like_thatI wouldn't ask you to go thru a bunch a pages to see my previous takes on this, but I said from the beginning it was the right move to withdraw (which I have supported for over a decade now). I would never bash Biden for withdrawing. I would say the majority of this thread supported withdrawal and the majority of this thread understands both Republicans and Democrats have a lot of blame to share for the past 20 years (Biden doesn't get a free pass for his 8 years with Obama). With that being said, as you already stated Biden deserves to be severely criticized for the execution.
I don't have the answers on how it should have been done, but I do know it would be very hard to set the bar any lower than the Biden Admin and passing the blame to the former guy is a complete joke. We were there for 20 years, and Biden unilaterally changed Trump's deadline. Don't try to sell me this bullshit that his "hands were tied," and downplay it as if this was how it was always going to go down.
Yeah, I am with you on this. There were a lot of warning signs being screamed by various groups about the need to get people out before August. Biden just did not listen to them. The strategy was to withdraw seemed right, but the tactics were a mess. Seems like it was we are leaving, screw the way how to leave. I look at this whole thing now as just the latest failure in nearly 20 years of failures.
posted by QuakerOats
False.
Again.
Worse days off the top of my head:
Marine Barracks bombing in Beirut
USS Cole
Bombings in Kenya and Tanzania
Operation Eagle Claw
Black Hawk Down
That does not even include actual battles where the loss of life was far greater.
This was a completely self-inflicted disaster of epic proportion.
Not shocked you don't get it.
Fine summary here: https://www.creators.com/read/armstrong-williams/08/21/our-global-leadership-is-declining
posted by QuakerOatsThis was a completely self-inflicted disaster of epic proportion.
Not shocked you don't get it.
Fine summary here: https://www.creators.com/read/armstrong-williams/08/21/our-global-leadership-is-declining
I dismiss any article that states this was the greatest moral failing in American history. That is quite some hyperbole. My general rule of thumb is if the person is saying this is the worst of all time, I dismiss it because they have zero grasp of history.
He mentions Nam, fine. But, he glosses over a lot of it, like the whole POW issue.
The rest of the article is a mess as his timeline is all over the place.
While the events of the last week are tragic, they are just the latest in a line of US failures. Was this the worse, nope, not by a long shot. But, it was pretty damn bad and embarrassing. I think a lot of people are angry because they are not used to America being seen like this when in reality, this has happened numerous times in US history.
yea trump as usual had a a bigly good plan, but cant say what it was
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-reveals-master-plan-afghanistan-143910953.html
posted by ptown_trojans_1I dismiss any article that states this was the greatest moral failing in American history. That is quite some hyperbole. My general rule of thumb is if the person is saying this is the worst of all time, I dismiss it because they have zero grasp of history.
He mentions Nam, fine. But, he glosses over a lot of it, like the whole POW issue.
The rest of the article is a mess as his timeline is all over the place.
While the events of the last week are tragic, they are just the latest in a line of US failures. Was this the worse, nope, not by a long shot. But, it was pretty damn bad and embarrassing. I think a lot of people are angry because they are not used to America being seen like this when in reality, this has happened numerous times in US history.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/wapo-calls-afghanistan-a-moral-disaster
Good Lord, even the Wapo is calling it a moral disaster.
And then this .......
https://nypost.com/2021/08/31/video-shows-man-hanging-below-black-hawk-flown-by-taliban/
If that is what it appears to be, the entire administration needs to be removed; hell they already should have been.
