Impressed by the Trump administration part II

posted by CenterBHSFan

Over in the Disgusted/Trump thread I said that there is a part of the left that is prejudiced against Israel. I need to update my opinion because it seems that more and more people who lean left or are totally on the left have this prejudice. 

And while they can have this opinion about Israel, I'd be very interested in finding out exactly why they have this opinion. Because I'm not sure if there is a reason why. Or at least a logical reason. In my own opinion, I'm starting to think it's just a vitriolic reaction because they are unable or unwilling to include all of the historical facts. 

It very much reminds me of the old debate of why the south seceded. Many people will say that the south left because of the lack of state's rights over their own economy - without being able to acknowledge the fact that the south, at that tme, wasn't able to have an economy without slave labor. There was simply not enough industry or mercantile business to rely on. 

 

I keep saying this (lol) but one of these days I'm going to start a thread about Israel. I think it would be a good discussion.

The overwhelming majority of democrats and "The Left" are not anti-Israel. Indeed the majority of Jews in America lean to the left. 

What I would say is that there is an outspoken element on the left who views modern Israel as an apartheid state (Whether you disagree, that's fine, but that is the view). Accordingly, these leftists react to Israel they way they might have toward South Africa - they see it as a fundamentally unjust state. 

There is also an element on the left and the libertarian right that blames our alliance with Israel for getting us into unjust and unnecessary conflicts that demonstrate that the costs of the alliance,outweigh the benefits. 

My own views are different than these but I that is my interpretation of avg. progressive lib views on Israel. 

@BS

I actually think you make some good points. But that brings me to what you said about the loud section of the left that looks at the Israel situation as apartheid. That was exactly my main point because they have the distinct inability to see history as a whole when it comes to this situation. And as such they react in such a way that where they will never be able to escape their own point of view. 

Also, because the majority (IIRC) of the Jewish population is secular, one would think that they would be willing to see the other side of facts. 

One more thing, and this doesn't really have anything to do with you... I think we need to be careful when describing liberals and progressives. They are now so far apart that I think a clear separation is in order. The "Gressies" are definitely illiberal. 

posted by superman

 Do you really not see the advantages of having an ally in the middle east?   

Not at the cost this alliance brings.  Cost being much more than the direct, no-strings-attached aid we give.  

posted by CenterBHSFan

Over in the Disgusted/Trump thread I said that there is a part of the left that is prejudiced against Israel. I need to update my opinion because it seems that more and more people who lean left or are totally on the left have this prejudice. 

And while they can have this opinion about Israel, I'd be very interested in finding out exactly why they have this opinion. Because I'm not sure if there is a reason why. Or at least a logical reason. In my own opinion, I'm starting to think it's just a vitriolic reaction because they are unable or unwilling to include all of the historical facts. 

It very much reminds me of the old debate of why the south seceded. Many people will say that the south left because of the lack of state's rights over their own economy - without being able to acknowledge the fact that the south, at that tme, wasn't able to have an economy without slave labor. There was simply not enough industry or mercantile business to rely on. 

 

I keep saying this (lol) but one of these days I'm going to start a thread about Israel. I think it would be a good discussion.

I'll just add to what Boat said, but a good portion of it could be because the religious right and most Rs are so pro-Israel. Israel can do no wrong and that, especially, the religious portion of the country, will ride to the death with Israel to fit their own personal view. The lefties see that and naturally go against it and point out all the failings of the Israelis.

I've said for years that no one in that area wants peace, both are just happy with the current situation. Until the Palestinians accept the state of Israel, and until Israel accepts a Palestinian state and stops building more and more settlements, we go around and around in this cycle. 

Yes, Palestine could have had a state a few times before, but from their point of view, the swap was not fair. So, they backed out. Same with Israel accepting Palestine. Israel simply cannot accept a Palestine that has an army, which is a core function of a country (the right of self defense.). Until that changes, Palestinians will simply live like second class citizens in a self described Jewish state. (Israel may be a secular state, but many of its laws favor and use the Jewish state.)

posted by CenterBHSFan

Over in the Disgusted/Trump thread I said that there is a part of the left that is prejudiced against Israel. I need to update my opinion because it seems that more and more people who lean left or are totally on the left have this prejudice. 

And while they can have this opinion about Israel, I'd be very interested in finding out exactly why they have this opinion. Because I'm not sure if there is a reason why. Or at least a logical reason. In my own opinion, I'm starting to think it's just a vitriolic reaction because they are unable or unwilling to include all of the historical facts. 

It very much reminds me of the old debate of why the south seceded. Many people will say that the south left because of the lack of state's rights over their own economy - without being able to acknowledge the fact that the south, at that tme, wasn't able to have an economy without slave labor. There was simply not enough industry or mercantile business to rely on. 

 

I keep saying this (lol) but one of these days I'm going to start a thread about Israel. I think it would be a good discussion.

If we used modern day progressive logic, we could conclude that the left hates jews. 

posted by like_that

If we used modern day progressive logic, we could conclude that the left hates jews. 

Progressive "logic" is an oxymoron....normally, they would look at Israel amongst a sea of Muslims that want to annihalte them, and side with the minority.  But for some reason, in this case, they only see it as an Israel/Palestine issue.

A lot of these issues you really have to look at voters....I think the case here is that the left decided they would gain more voters than they lose by being less pro-Israel.

What's really interesting is nearly 75% of Jewish voters are Democrat or lean Democrat.  But most people, with the exception of Evangelicals, don't appear to have their vote strongly influenced by religion.  Jewish-leaning Dem percentages have not changed signficantly in at least 25 years.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Not at the cost this alliance brings.  Cost being much more than the direct, no-strings-attached aid we give.  

Centuries of history say otherwise.  Its a bargain.

posted by like_that

 

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the UN.  Also, big shocker that Dr. Winston "I am very moderate" Boogie is ok with all of these countries condemning the US.  What will we ever do without Venezuela's support, while they starve their entire nation?!?!

Dave Chappelle is one of my favorite comedians.  Love his white man voice.  As with all comedey the LOL's come with a small element of truth.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

There were people there before Israel appeared on the map 60 years ago.  

Israel appeared on the map more than sixty years ago. 

posted by majorspark

Israel appeared on the map more than sixty years ago. 

Sorry, 69 years ago.  The State of Israel.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

69 years ago

Nice.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Sorry, 69 years ago.  The State of Israel.

You are talking about the modern day state of Israel.  This thing has been going on for thousands of years.  There is a reason the dome of the rock and the al-aqsa mosque sit on the ruins of the Jewish temple.

THe main problem with the Middle east/Israel/Palestine issue is that we are involved.  If we GTFO of there everything will work its way out.  Albeit bloody and terrible.....it will work.

posted by Spock

THe main problem with the Middle east/Israel/Palestine issue is that we are involved.  If we GTFO of there everything will work its way out.  Albeit bloody and terrible.....it will work.

Says the same person who constantly rants about Obama being a wimp.   Oh, the irony.....

posted by gut

Progressive "logic" is an oxymoron....normally, they would look at Israel amongst a sea of Muslims that want to annihalte them, and side with the minority.  But for some reason, in this case, they only see it as an Israel/Palestine issue.

They only side with the minority when they are oppressed. When the minority is kicking ass, the left apparently has to switch sides. 

One thing i do find amusing, there is a pretty good record of Israel treating Christians like shit and the right seems to ignore that. 

posted by majorspark

Centuries of history say otherwise.  Its a bargain.

The alliance isn't centuries old because the State of Israel has only existed since 1948.  In that time, the idea of having a friend in the Middle East is always the rationale for our relationship with Israel.  What exactly are the benefits of this relationshiop?

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

The alliance isn't centuries old because the State of Israel has only existed since 1948.  In that time, the idea of having a friend in the Middle East is always the rationale for our relationship with Israel.  What exactly are the benefits of this relationshiop?

You need to get off this idea that the state of Israel never existed prior to 1948.  There is a long history that provides context for the present.  Religious Jews believe that 3rd and final Temple will be built were it existed centuries ago.  That site has two very important structures to Islam that were placed there as a flip off to the scattered nation of Israel and their God.  In order for the Temple to be built those structures I mentioned would have to be razed to the ground.  You can only imagine the shitstorm.

Muslims controlled the Middle East and Jerusalem for centuries and of course there was peace and they left other nations alone.  Why are we in an alliance with South Korea?  Surely the nutjob up north would not be developing missiles tipped with nukes capable of destroying American cities.  Why all this for the southern tip of a peninsula in Asia?  Unfortunately the world is governed by the aggressive use of force.

Its better to be found a sheep than a goat.

posted by majorspark

You need to get off this idea that the state of Israel never existed prior to 1948.  There is a long history that provides context for the present.  Religious Jews believe that 3rd and final Temple will be built were it existed centuries ago.  That site has two very important structures to Islam that were placed there as a flip off to the scattered nation of Israel and their God.  In order for the Temple to be built those structures I mentioned would have to be razed to the ground.  You can only imagine the shitstorm.

Muslims controlled the Middle East and Jerusalem for centuries and of course there was peace and they left other nations alone.  Why are we in an alliance with South Korea?  Surely the nutjob up north would not be developing missiles tipped with nukes capable of destroying American cities.  Why all this for the southern tip of a peninsula in Asia?  Unfortunately the world is governed by the aggressive use of force.

Its better to be found a sheep than a goat.

I'm aware of the history of the region.  Prior to 1948, there wasn't an official state to be aligned with.  Then one was founded.  Due to many factors, including some you mention, there is a great deal of hatred between Israel and its neighbors.  While that is too bad for Israel, it is not something we should be in the middle of.  If that's the case, there are plenty of other repressed peoples of the world we should support just as much.  However, that is impractical.  The fact of the matter is that our unconditional support for Israel costs us a lot more than it helps us.  What are the advantages to us?  Having an ally in the Middle East?  So what.  Our military allows us to project our forces anywhere we need to over there or anywhere else. Until this year, we didn't have a base in Israel.  Now there is a small US AF base within an Israeli AF base.  So is that the benefit for our unconditional support.  

posted by majorspark

You need to get off this idea that the state of Israel never existed prior to 1948.  There is a long history that provides context for the present.  Religious Jews believe that 3rd and final Temple will be built were it existed centuries ago.  That site has two very important structures to Islam that were placed there as a flip off to the scattered nation of Israel and their God.  In order for the Temple to be built those structures I mentioned would have to be razed to the ground.  You can only imagine the shitstorm.

Muslims controlled the Middle East and Jerusalem for centuries and of course there was peace and they left other nations alone.  Why are we in an alliance with South Korea?  Surely the nutjob up north would not be developing missiles tipped with nukes capable of destroying American cities.  Why all this for the southern tip of a peninsula in Asia?  Unfortunately the world is governed by the aggressive use of force.

Its better to be found a sheep than a goat.

Uhh apparently, you really do not understand the importance of the Dome of the Rock in Islam. Also, come on, Muslims believe in the same God as Jews. On that larger point, just because someone had a previous claim to land, does not mean in the modern world they have claims to it now. If that is the case, where is the line drawn? Does China get to claim the South China sea as they are now? Can Russia claim the Ukraine because it used to be in Russia? Or, how about the British saying you know what, those 13 colonies were ours, we want them back. 

Palestinians have just as much right to land as Israel. You cannoit just say oh we were here first, otherwise, the whole notion of the modern state is worthless. 

I'd also argue that the U.S. has a longer alliance with Saudi Arabia than Israel. FDR met with the Saudi King to secure oil for the war. The U.S. was also in favor of trying to keep the Middle East nations away from the Soviet influence during the Cold War. Israel was also on the shit list for the U.S. for many years.(1950s Suez crisis, 1960s nuclear program, 1973 war, stone U.S. nuclear secrets, etc. )  It wasn't until really the 1979 Peace treaty with Egypt and during the 1980s that the U.S./ Israel relationship entered their current phase. 

It is funny how Israel is held to this higher standard within the U.S. ,yet history shows, for most of their modern form, they have had a rocky relationship with the U.S. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

The alliance isn't centuries old because the State of Israel has only existed since 1948.  In that time, the idea of having a friend in the Middle East is always the rationale for our relationship with Israel.  What exactly are the benefits of this relationshiop?

Our military can project force around the world because of overseas bases.  Which ones would you like to withdraw from?  The Middle East is an important part of the world.  Like many other geographical areas.  What don't you like about Israel as opposed to South Korea?  Or say Norway?  We just had some troops drill with the Norwegians pissing the Russians off.  What about the Ukrainians?  Again pissing off the Russians.  Why are you so concerned about the US allying itself with a Middle Eastern nation that does not oppress women and kill gay people?