Disgusted by the Trump administration part II

posted by gut

We know the payment happened, but unless there is more of that tape it doesn't prove anything illegal.  Cohen, though, is crooked and seems to be STRONGLY signaling he will say whatever Mueller wants in order to avoid a lengthy jail term.  He's publicly begging for a deal - doesn't do much for what's left of his credibility.

Just please tell me we don't start with 2 year+ investigation costing over $30M on "Russian collusion" and end-up trying to impeach Trump over a $130k campaign finance "violation".  That's a lot different than $100M from Russia to your charity.

I have seen this take being thrown around and legally it sounds like Trump is in the clear, unless Mueller subpoenas him and traps him on a perjury charge. 

posted by CenterBHSFan

Yeah well, we don't need to imagine what would have happened if it was under Obama because it's largely similar to what's already happened to a sitting President. A special investigation into Clinton's affairs began with a land deal (IIRC) and ended up with stains on a blue dress - which had nothing to do with a land deal gone wrong. I suspect that something very similar of Clinton's results will conclude with Trump. Meaning that he'll be impeached on something but not Russia.

But hell, I'm very reluctant to predict *anything* after 2016. 

It has been pretty clear for over a year the path this has been and still is going is a case for impeachment.  

posted by CenterBHSFan

I don't think he is.

I do think, however, that he's enjoying the roller coaster ride of meltdowns and irony. To be fair I am too, to a certain extent. Sometimes it's better to laugh some things off rather than have high blood pressure haha!

Yeah, I don't think Gut is a Trump supporter.  In this current climate either you have to be completely unhinged regarding everything trump does and if not you're a trump supporter or the very least sympathizer. 

posted by gut

Just mention the name Trump and some people literally become drooling idiots.  How many times are these people going to get wound-up over forthcoming "bombshells" and "smoking guns" that never materialize?  Charlie Brown always kept trying to kick the football, but at least he became somewhat skeptical eventually.

You gotta take Ptown's approach of sitting back and waiting for Mueller's investigation to conlulde. 

posted by gut

Just mention the name Trump and some people literally become drooling idiots.  How many times are these people going to get wound-up over forthcoming "bombshells" and "smoking guns" that never materialize?  Charlie Brown always kept trying to kick the football, but at least he became somewhat skeptical eventually.

Yeah, we're all watching CC's "blind apologist" postings.

posted by gut

Feel free to put on your legal hat and point me to actual proof of wrongdoing by Trump.  Stating facts isn't carrying water for anyone. 

But how about those millions of dollars that went to Russian operatives from Hillary's campaign and the DNC?  Again call it whatever you like, but most of us call those facts.

My own view is that Mueller's team has a theory of crime that does not involve good victims who might typically serve as witnesses and thus they are trying to turn accomplices who can serve as witnesses to the larger crime by charging them with other crimes tangentially related to the larger criminal conspiracy. Whether they will be able to be prove the larger theory of crime remains to be seen. 

If it were Obama or Hillary or any Democrat you would be regularly reminding us of these larger potential crimes for which is are not yet or may never be any concrete proof e.g. see: this comment; when you would suggest Obama used NSA data for political purposes; weaponizing the IRS & other agencies; etc. 

When it's Trump you act completely differently. 

posted by BoatShoes

My own view is that Mueller's team has a theory of crime that does not involve good victims who might typically serve as witnesses and thus they are trying to turn accomplices who can serve as witnesses to the larger crime by charging them with other crimes tangentially related to the larger criminal conspiracy. Whether they will be able to be prove the larger theory of crime remains to be seen. 

If it were Obama or Hillary or any Democrat you would be regularly reminding us of these larger potential crimes for which is are not yet or may never be any concrete proof e.g. see: this comment; when you would suggest Obama used NSA data for political purposes; weaponizing the IRS & other agencies; etc. 

When it's Trump you act completely differently. 

People lost their minds when obama golfed a few times now it’s called doing business. 

Take a look at these comparisons between the Information and the Steele Dossier:

The relevant passages:

Indictment

In January 2017, COHEN in seeking reimbursement for election-related expenses, presented executives of the Company with a copy of a bank statement from the Essential Consultants bank account, which reflected the $130,000 payment COHEN had made to the bank account of Attorney-1 in order to keep Woman-2 silent in advance of the election, plus a $35 wire fee, adding, in handwriting, an additional “$50,000.” The $50,000 represented a claimed payment for “tech services,” which in fact related to work COHEN had solicited from a technology company during and in connection with the campaign. COHEN added these amounts to a sum of $180,035. After receiving this document, executives of the Company “grossed up” for tax purposes COHEN’s requested reimbursement of $180,000 to $360,000, and then added a bonus of $60,000 so that COHEN would be paid $420,000 in total. Executives of the Company also determined that the $420,000 would be paid to COHEN in monthly amounts of $35,000 over the course of 12 months, and that COHEN should send invoices for these payments.

Dossier

[REDACTED BY BUZZFEED NEWS] provided further details of these meeting/s and associated anti-CLINTON /Democratic Party operations. COHEN had been accompanied to Prague by 3 colleagues and the timing of the visit was either in the last week of August or the first week of September. One of their main Russian interlocutors was Oleg SOLODUKHIN operating under Rossotrudnichestvo cover. According to [REDACTED BY BUZZFEED NEWS] the agenda comprised questions on how deniable cash payments were to be made to hackers who had worked in Europe under Kremlin direction against the CLINTON campaign and various contingencies for covering up these operations and Moscow’s secret liaison with the TRUMP team more generally.

^^^boys and girls do we have ourselves the first evidence of payments to the Russian Hackers out there for all to see? Why is the campaign laundering "tech services" payments through the Trump org instead of just paying the vendors directly and reporting them to the FEC accordingly? 

I wonder if Kelly Anne starts to sweat explaining away the sudden ad buys in Wisconsin, PA and Michigan that the chattering classes were deriding in Oct. 2016? 

posted by like_that

I have seen this take being thrown around and legally it sounds like Trump is in the clear, unless Mueller subpoenas him and traps him on a perjury charge. 

I've always said if they get into Trump's finances and business dealings, he's done.  Colluding with Russia has never made sense to me, on any level.

It's also pretty inconceivable to me that they'd be dumb enough to intentionally misuse campaign finance funds for a couple of payoffs (pretty much only your "commoners" misuse campaign finance funds for personal gain).  Now Cohen is a shitty lawyer, but we're talking peanuts.  Even Trump is not dumb enough to break the law over such a paltry sum, especially when he just as easily could funnel the payment through any one of hundreds (thousands?) of LLC's he has.  And believe me, Trump is no stranger on how to structure and launder payoffs.

posted by Heretic

Yeah, we're all watching CC's "blind apologist" postings.

It does go both ways.  Most of the politards in this country have become dumber and blinder than a Cleveland Browns fans.

posted by Automatik

How fucking warped is your brain? Felony convictions and a guilty plea aren't materializations? 

My brain is fine, but you clearly suffer from TDS.  Thanks for proving the point, again.

And I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Russia collusion?  Neither of the above has anything to do with that, or even much to do with Trump.  Cohen was his fixer, but the initial indictment was over Cohen's private business dealings.

Cohen has claimed Trump ordered him to commit a campaign finance violation, but like I said we haven't seen any evidence of that.  If Mueller wanted to make a deal with Cohen, he doesn't kick that to the state court.  That's why Cohen is publicly begging for a deal.  I have no idea how it would work for Mueller to now come in and offer a deal in a case he has no jurisdiction over.

Now it IS interesting with the latest news about NY AG's investigation into the Trump charity.  Cohen probably has dirt there, and I'm sure that charity is far from squeaky clean.  But, again, NY not federal and not Mueller.  And this just broke today, although we've heard about the charity in the past.

posted by gut

It does go both ways.  Most of the politards in this country have become dumber and blinder than a Cleveland Browns fans.

Hey now!  >.>

Why the fuck is Trump tweeting about a Tucker Carlson segment about South Africa? 

It rose to the level where the government of South Africa had to issue a statement saying, ""South Africa totally rejects this narrow perception which only seeks to divide our nation and reminds us of our colonial past."

posted by gut

 

My brain is fine, but you clearly suffer from TDS.  Thanks for proving the point, again.

And I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Russia collusion?  Neither of the above has anything to do with that, or even much to do with Trump.  Cohen was his fixer, but the initial indictment was over Cohen's private business dealings.

Cohen has claimed Trump ordered him to commit a campaign finance violation, but like I said we haven't seen any evidence of that.  If Mueller wanted to make a deal with Cohen, he doesn't kick that to the state court.  That's why Cohen is publicly begging for a deal.  I have no idea how it would work for Mueller to now come in and offer a deal in a case he has no jurisdiction over.

Now it IS interesting with the latest news about NY AG's investigation into the Trump charity.  Cohen probably has dirt there, and I'm sure that charity is far from squeaky clean.  But, again, NY not federal and not Mueller.  And this just broke today, although we've heard about the charity in the past.

The state charges are a backup plan to prevent Cohen from taking a federal trump Pardon. It would kill a key witness in the collusion investigation and there would be no deal for Cohen if it had to go to state court. The case is blown without Cohen & Manifort flipping just like the Gotti trial would have been blown if Mueller hadn't gotten Sammy the Bull Gravano to flip.

The theory is that Cohen coordinated the payments to the Russians on behalf of Trump. The Russians then used or provided the hacked DNC data e.g. voter turnout models for the benefit of the Trump campaign as outlined in the earlier indictment of the hackers. That data & using targeted social media through facebook was enough to flip the 3 swing states by a couple thousand votes.

I think it will come down to ultimately whether Mueller & co. can prove Trump & co. knew these hackers they paid were working on behalf of the Russian government. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Why the fuck is Trump tweeting about a Tucker Carlson segment about South Africa? 

I'm actually kind of impressed he was able to watch Tucker Carlson.  That's like a super power....

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Why the fuck is Trump tweeting about a Tucker Carlson segment about South Africa? 

It rose to the level where the government of South Africa had to issue a statement saying, ""South Africa totally rejects this narrow perception which only seeks to divide our nation and reminds us of our colonial past."

I'm not sure what exactly they mean by that? It's been known for some time that the government has been seizing land from white land owners because of the disparity between whites/blacks and who owns the majority of the land. There are several documentaries about this already. 

So again, what are they rejecting, exactly? That it's being reported, documented, etc.?

posted by CenterBHSFan

I'm not sure what exactly they mean by that? It's been known for some time that the government has been seizing land from white land owners because of the disparity between whites/blacks and who owns the majority of the land. There are several documentaries about this already. 

So again, what are they rejecting, exactly? That it's being reported, documented, etc.?

Trump tweeted some white nationalist talking points. There is no evidence of widespread killing of white farmers. I do however find the humor I a guy who has talked about manifest destiny and white people in general who stole land now speaking out against the very same thing 

posted by geeblock

Trump tweeted some white nationalist talking points. There is no evidence of widespread killing of white farmers. I do however find the humor I a guy who has talked about manifest destiny and white people in general who stole land now speaking out against the very same thing 

Well, there has been some killing of white farmers, but it hasn't reached the level of genocide yet. The SA government has even said it. In fact, I think their exact words were "for now". 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/2018/06/12/malema-we-have-not-called-for-the-killing-of-white-people-at-least-for-now_a_23456601/

I'm saying to you, we've not called for the killing of white people, at least for now. I can't guarantee the future.

Trump isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Everybody knows this... or should know this I should say. I don't think it was very intelligent of him to be tweeting this stuff because it's going to be nothing but inflammatory for the left and the right.  But I also don't think that the SA needs to be rejecting anything. There hasn't been a genocide yet, but theft of farms by the state is still occurring. They were also purposely vague about separating between the two and we should keep that in mind.

posted by CenterBHSFan

Well, there has been some killing of white farmers, but it hasn't reached the level of genocide yet. The SA government has even said it. In fact, I think their exact words were "for now". 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/2018/06/12/malema-we-have-not-called-for-the-killing-of-white-people-at-least-for-now_a_23456601/

I'm saying to you, we've not called for the killing of white people, at least for now. I can't guarantee the future.

Trump isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Everybody knows this... or should know this I should say. I don't think it was very intelligent of him to be tweeting this stuff because it's going to be nothing but inflammatory for the left and the right.  But I also don't think that the SA needs to be rejecting anything. There hasn't been a genocide yet, but theft of farms by the state is still occurring. They were also purposely vague about separating between the two and we should keep that in mind.

 

I think the height of killing farmers peaked in early 2000s by any estimates it’s not genocide. As far as the stealing of farms and land, that happened a long time ago. This is more like giving some back. 10% of the population owned 90% of the  land during apartheid. 

posted by iclfan2

Lol wut?

There has been no large scale killing of farmers. This is a white nationalist talking point going around. What is hard to comprehend ?

I deleted my post because I was going to respond more. Genocide term is a joke. But they clearly are planning to take land. And you seem to be ok with that.

And even though the violence and murders are lower they are still occurring. You fuckin hate Trump and I get it, but condoning violence against white Farmers is absurd.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/27/murders-of-farmers-in-south-africa-at-20-year-low-research-shows

posted by iclfan2

I deleted my post because I was going to respond more. Genocide term is a joke. But they clearly are planning to take land. And you seem to be ok with that.

I was explaining the post I’m not getting sidetracked. You can feel however you want about it. I’ve learned from too many debates in here. My comment was simply that there are no large scale killings You seem to be cool with the fact the president is lying.