Progressives, part 3...

Lot of misunderstanding of history and facts here, which is not a surprise. 

The Palestinians have not had a legit election since 2006, and the PA has been a total failure to them. The people have been let down by their own government, and in the vacuum, Hamas, has filled the void. 

The most recent spate of violence has actually nothing to do with Gaza, but more Jerusalem and the rights of Arab Israelis. People were getting thrown out of their homes in East Jerusalem for more settlements over the past few weeks. This boiled over as people were kicked out of the al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan. This is what led to violence in the streets. 

Israeli settlers and pretty far right nationalists in Israelis have been targeting Arab-Israeli the last few months without any recourse. 

This bubbled up and led to the first round of violence. That spiraled into the traditional tit for tat we see now. 

Adding to the fact is Israel is in the middle of a mutli year long election process to try and form a government. So, the candidates have been favoring more and more to the ultra national orthodox Israeli citizens who want to reclaim the entire area, thus setting the stage for the current spate of violence. 

Israel is hitting an inflection point in their history right now. The two state solution is dead, and more and more of its population is Arab/ Israeli not Jewish. Yet, they claim to be a democratic Jewish state. They are currently going through the pains of a segment of the population that has not had their rights heard or voiced going against another segment that is ultra religious. Throw in Hamas throwing rockets, and you get the current situation. 

It is not the typical Israel v. Palestinian issue we think of. 

This has all been going for years under the surface, but the "Abraham Accords" glossed over it. 

Going forward, the questions are now how to we get to a 2 state solution, it is how to we get to a 1 state solution where both sides have equal rights and boundaries. Yet, no one wants to even entertain that question. You cannot have an Israel that is Jewish and Democratic. It has to be one or the other now given the demographics. 

posted by majorspark

Quite clear who was there before the other.  

Pretty pathetic commentary on American politics that this has become a left vs. right issue.  Kind of crazy that Dems looked at this and concluded "well, the GOP has Israel support locked down, so let's side with Palestine......We already, inexplicably, have the Jewish vote anyway"

posted by gut

So you would not condemn American Indians launching regular terrorist attacks across the US?

And isn't it more correct to say Israel is a re-claimed country, and the "occupiers" were, in fact, interlopers?

Not my point. If I were a citizen of another country that funded a large part of the US military and infrastructure - by both elected parties - I would be upset when my country automatically threw in with the US government whenever there was an Indian attack (in your scenario). 

posted by majorspark

I know it's what one side refers to as the Nakba.  It's the point in time that one side chooses to define the "occupiers".  You look at the most disputed piece of property on the land.  One side has a couple of its most sacred structures sitting on top of the foundation of the ruins of the other side's most sacred structure.  Quite clear who was there before the other.  

It's not clear and it wouldn't have mattered to us if we hadn't thrown in 150% with one side. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Lot of misunderstanding of history and facts here, which is not a surprise. 

Okay jmog. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

There's a country that was created there on occupied land. The U S funds it and it's extensive military. When the people who are affected by that strike in terror attacks because they don't believe they have alternatives, I'm not going to feel outraged about it. 

The fact that you are victimizing the terrorists is not a good look.

The land was owned by Britain before WW2, not any Arab group and not Palestinians  It was given to Israel after the atrocities of WW2.

The Palestinian have no more claim to that land than Israelis.

History doesn’t agree with your statement.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Lot of misunderstanding of history and facts here, which is not a surprise. 

The Palestinians have not had a legit election since 2006, and the PA has been a total failure to them. The people have been let down by their own government, and in the vacuum, Hamas, has filled the void. 

The most recent spate of violence has actually nothing to do with Gaza, but more Jerusalem and the rights of Arab Israelis. People were getting thrown out of their homes in East Jerusalem for more settlements over the past few weeks. This boiled over as people were kicked out of the al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan. This is what led to violence in the streets. 

Israeli settlers and pretty far right nationalists in Israelis have been targeting Arab-Israeli the last few months without any recourse. 

This bubbled up and led to the first round of violence. That spiraled into the traditional tit for tat we see now. 

Adding to the fact is Israel is in the middle of a mutli year long election process to try and form a government. So, the candidates have been favoring more and more to the ultra national orthodox Israeli citizens who want to reclaim the entire area, thus setting the stage for the current spate of violence. 

Israel is hitting an inflection point in their history right now. The two state solution is dead, and more and more of its population is Arab/ Israeli not Jewish. Yet, they claim to be a democratic Jewish state. They are currently going through the pains of a segment of the population that has not had their rights heard or voiced going against another segment that is ultra religious. Throw in Hamas throwing rockets, and you get the current situation. 

It is not the typical Israel v. Palestinian issue we think of. 

This has all been going for years under the surface, but the "Abraham Accords" glossed over it. 

Going forward, the questions are now how to we get to a 2 state solution, it is how to we get to a 1 state solution where both sides have equal rights and boundaries. Yet, no one wants to even entertain that question. You cannot have an Israel that is Jewish and Democratic. It has to be one or the other now given the demographics. 

To be fair the 2 state solution was stopped repeatedly by the Arabs not the Jews.

Most of the Arab nations, including Palestinians, want Israel and the Jews driven into the Mediterranean and don’t recognize Israel as a country (save a few countries recently).

posted by jmog

The fact that you are victimizing the terrorists is not a good look.

The land was owned by Britain before WW2, not any Arab group and not Palestinians  It was given to Israel after the atrocities of WW2.

The Palestinian have no more claim to that land than Israelis.

History doesn’t agree with your statement.

"Not a good look". Haha. Bad "optics" is it?  Ugly "narrative"?  That's the lingo for sure. 

I'm not giving a historical lesson. I'm opining that I'm not going to get all worked up about what's going on in Israel. I know we're supposed to in order to keep justifying  the billion dollar checks.  If the Israelis want to live there, have at it. The people there hate them and they hate the people there.  Doesn't sound like a great future to me. I also don't want my tax dollars going there to support one side militarily in a centuries-old conflict.  

posted by jmog

The fact that you are victimizing the terrorists is not a good look.

The land was owned by Britain before WW2, not any Arab group and not Palestinians  It was given to Israel after the atrocities of WW2.

The Palestinian have no more claim to that land than Israelis.

History doesn’t agree with your statement.

The land was Ottoman before the end of World War I. But, even then, the land was actually divided evenly between the faiths. It wasn't until the Zionist movement post World War I, with the Balfour Declaration that the idea of a Jewish state took hold. 

posted by jmog

To be fair the 2 state solution was stopped repeatedly by the Arabs not the Jews.

Most of the Arab nations, including Palestinians, want Israel and the Jews driven into the Mediterranean and don’t recognize Israel as a country (save a few countries recently).

Israel is just as responsible for the failure of the 2 state solution as the PA. If you think it is one sided, you are picking a side. 

The whole settlement issue is just one example as Israeli settlements are in the West Bank zone that are Palestinian. 

The fact is neither side wants to actually propose and come to a solution. Both prefer the current situation. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

The land was Ottoman before the end of World War I. But, even then, the land was actually divided evenly between the faiths. It wasn't until the Zionist movement post World War I, with the Balfour Declaration that the idea of a Jewish state took hold. 

Mostly true but not 100%. There was a “Jerusalem” state for a couple hundred years before the Ottoman Empire and an Israel/Judah states for about 1000 years at one point as well.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Israel is just as responsible for the failure of the 2 state solution as the PA. If you think it is one sided, you are picking a side. 

The whole settlement issue is just one example as Israeli settlements are in the West Bank zone that are Palestinian. 

The fact is neither side wants to actually propose and come to a solution. Both prefer the current situation. 

Israel has obviously screwed things up many times but come on, they have offered peace and a 2 state solution yet their enemies want every Jew in the world dead.

It’s hard to reason with that.

Ooh hey look, ptown defending terrorists and then trying to act like he's neutral.  

Haven't seen this old song and dance for a few years. 

posted by jmog

Mostly true but not 100%. There was a “Jerusalem” state for a couple hundred years before the Ottoman Empire and an Israel/Judah states for about 1000 years at one point as well.

Yeah, correct. My point being during the years of the Ottoman Empire, there was actually a joint sharing of the holy sites. That was changed by the British and the Balfour Declaration. 

posted by jmog

Israel has obviously screwed things up many times but come on, they have offered peace and a 2 state solution yet their enemies want every Jew in the world dead.

It’s hard to reason with that.

"Peace" but then take additional land at every turn and also do not give full rights to Arab Israelis. 

The bigger issue long term for Israel is not the West Bank and Gaza, but the fact the state cannot be both Jewish and Democratic. The demographics and growing influence of the ultra orthodox will present a problem. 

The fact they cannot form a government over the past 2 years is one example of this. The government and the very idea of what it means to be Isreali is in question. 

posted by superman

Ooh hey look, ptown defending terrorists and then trying to act like he's neutral.  

Haven't seen this old song and dance for a few years. 

Defending terrorists? When did I do that? Is just questioning the fact Israel is not right on everything equal to defending terrorists? 

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2021/05/16/homeys-been-cashing-a-cnn-check-for-8-years-cnns-adeel-raja-tries-deleting-tweet-calling-for-a-new-hitler-buuut-we-got-it/

Guy who is a regular contributor to CNN with pro Hitler tweets. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Yeah, correct. My point being during the years of the Ottoman Empire, there was actually a joint sharing of the holy sites. That was changed by the British and the Balfour Declaration. 

Well, at the end of the day, when you (Ottoman Empjre) join a war on the wrong side of history and lose, things like this tend to happen.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

"Peace" but then take additional land at every turn and also do not give full rights to Arab Israelis. 

The bigger issue long term for Israel is not the West Bank and Gaza, but the fact the state cannot be both Jewish and Democratic. The demographics and growing influence of the ultra orthodox will present a problem. 

The fact they cannot form a government over the past 2 years is one example of this. The government and the very idea of what it means to be Isreali is in question. 

The West Bank and Gaza were won in wars where Israel was the one attacked.

That tends to happen in wars. You attack me, and lose badly, I take some of your land.

Don’t make it sound like Israel attack the Arab countries around them to gain more land.  That would be easily proven wrong by historical facts.

Whatever topic brought up seems to send you two on a Wikipedia rampage - citing obscure facts as though they're  ready knowledge.  Assume we can all Google.