2020 Presidential Election thread

posted by SportsAndLady

Ahhh, yes. You guys are definitely not republicans/right wing. You’re libertarians! You actually lean left but you just APPEAR to be right leaning because those darn lefties have just pushed so far left!

never change, OC, never change. 

You have no idea what a libertarian is if you say they “lean left” or “lean right”. 

Libertarianism is typically socially liberal and fiscally conservative. So they agree with conservatives fiscal ideas and the classic liberals (NOT modern left) on social ideas. 

posted by jmog

You have no idea what a libertarian is if you say they “lean left” or “lean right”. 

 

Libertarianism is typically socially liberal and fiscally conservative. So they agree with conservatives fiscal ideas and the classic liberals (NOT modern left) on social ideas. 

 

 

Why do you think majority of today's Democratic Party not "socially liberal" on most social issues? That is - where is the Democratic Party for using government power to restrict social freedom more than they were 10 years ago? Left wing trolls with no political power that call you racist don't count.

For example, using the Department of Education to say nationwide that trans kids get to use whatever bathroom they want is pretty much peak social liberalism IMHO lol. 

posted by BoatShoes

Why do you think majority of today's Democratic Party not "socially liberal" on most social issues? That is - where is the Democratic Party for using government power to restrict social freedom more than they were 10 years ago? Left wing trolls with no political power that call you racist don't count.

For example, using the Department of Education to say nationwide that trans kids get to use whatever bathroom they want is pretty much peak social liberalism IMHO lol. 

My comment was that libertarians agree socially with classical liberalism but they do not agree with the modern left. 

posted by jmog

You have no idea what a libertarian is if you say they “lean left” or “lean right”. 

 

Libertarianism is typically socially liberal and fiscally conservative. So they agree with conservatives fiscal ideas and the classic liberals (NOT modern left) on social ideas. 

 

 

And you have no idea what I was saying. I was saying they're not fucking libertarian, they're republicans who either won't admit it (for whatever reason) or they don't realize it.

posted by jmog

My comment was that libertarians agree socially with classical liberalism but they do not agree with the modern left. 

My comment requested you describe what you mean by "modern left" - as far as gov't policy goes I would say the "modern left" is more socially liberally i.e. for less gov't infringement in social and personal liberty issues - than they used to be so libertarians should like that aspect of the "modern left". 

posted by SportsAndLady

And you have no idea what I was saying. I was saying they're not fucking libertarian, they're republicans who either won't admit it (for whatever reason) or they don't realize it.

Will you admit you're Republican?  

posted by like_that

Will you admit you're Republican?  

I believe I am, yes

posted by SportsAndLady

And you have no idea what I was saying. I was saying they're not fucking libertarian, they're republicans who either won't admit it (for whatever reason) or they don't realize it.

So interesting that you know what people believe and they don’t. Can I get that crystal ball? I need the next Mega Millions numbers. 

The posted by BoatShoes

My comment requested you describe what you mean by "modern left" - as far as gov't policy goes I would say the "modern left" is more socially liberally i.e. for less gov't infringement in social and personal liberty issues - than they used to be so libertarians should like that aspect of the "modern left". 

The left has “left” their classical belief in the government not telling us what we should do socially (belief in legalizing some drugs, same sex marriage, etc). The modern left has started to believe in the government telling us what we are allowed to say (proper pronouns) that speech needs to be abridged (micro aggressions), the SJWs, etc. 

Classical liberalism believed in free speech, the modern left shuts down/wants to shut down opposing views. 

And to say that these are “just the fringe” is plain asinine and not paying attention to modern candidates on the left.  Of the current candidates for the DNC for POTUS only really Buttigieg and Gabbard are not pandering to this modern left theology (I am not including Biden yet because he hasn’t declared).

Pelosi is now considered more moderate now and is trying to reign in the new DNC members of the house that have fell off the left wing wagon. Let that sink in, Pelosi, from one of the most liberal districts in the US, is now considered moderate in her party.  The middle and right used to consider her a loon but the new loons are even farther “left”.

Franklin Graham:

Presidential candidate & South Bend Mayor @PeteButtigieg is right—God doesn’t have a political party. But God does have commandments, laws & standards He gives us to live by. God doesn’t change. His Word is the same yesterday, today & forever. 1/3

Mayor Buttigieg says he’s a gay Christian. As a Christian I believe the Bible which defines homosexuality as sin, something to be repentant of, not something to be flaunted, praised or politicized. The Bible says marriage is between a man & a woman—not two men, not two women. 2/3

The core of the Christian faith is believing and following Jesus Christ, who God sent to be the Savior of the world—to save us from sin, to save us from hell, to save us from eternal damnation 3/3

Yes, lets hear more about how left the left has gotten

posted by Heretic

To me, like you said, this site (and also the old Huddle) were always right-leaning. Hell, I remember laughing my ass off in '08 on the old Huddle because of how many middle-aged and older dudes were rockin' those Palin avatars (with probably half or so not even including McCain) in what looked like a comical "our side's done got a MILF, so vote R!!!!!" kind of thing. I'd say the main difference now, other than how any left "opposition" is far more sporadic, is the over-the-top anti-progressive sentiment. Which mainly comes from a handful of people who (a) dedicate a legit amount of their time scouring the Internet for Stupid Progressive stories and (b) seemingly treat random opinions by some nobody as equally noteworthy or important as something that an actual progressive politician whose opinions could actually have a say in policy says or does.

Thank you for explaining this, since S&L is intellectually incapable of answering a simple question.  I agree with some of what you say, but I still stand by the left shifting further left as data has shown and the type of politicians are being voted.  I said in 2016 the dems would have their own tea party movement, and they currently are dealing with it.  We will see how they handle it.

posted by BoatShoes

What I think S&L is getting at, I think, is that the majority of people inclined to libertarianism - say, being for legalizing drugs (something Democrats tend to support more) and lower income taxes (something Republicans tend to support more) generally seem to vote Republican more than Democrat when they're playing the two party game and, at least on this board in particular, spend an inordinate amount of political discussion on "tHe lEFT" - e.g. multiple threads on disgust with progressives. 

So while on the one hand you have the true Capital L Libertarians like Justin and O-Trap who will not abide either party -  you have the lower case l libertarians who'd probably prefer a robust libertarian party but vote R 99% of the time because by golly - while the GOP may be a complete fraud doing everything fiscally they railed on Obama about and be totally cool with infringing on property rights on social issues - goddamn those libz!

It's a phenomenon on the right - people who vote down ticket Republican and then say "I'm not a Republican though, I'm a libertarian!"

It'd be like me saying I'm not a Democrat even though I vote Democrat every time despite my hope that I could vote for an MMT-Party that wants to cut payroll taxes and sell securities to fund a Green New Deal. There are elements of the Democratic party that embarrass me and that I don't support but the reality is, in our political spectrum, I'm still a Democrat and a left-winger despite what I might want to call myself or vote for in a perfect world. 

S&L is incapable of explaining this, but thank you for translating for the kids table.  There are definitely those who identify as libertarian but vote for R.  Some do it while holding their noses as they see it as the only option to prevent the dems from winning.  Some do it, because they truly aren't libertarian.  There is also a group who will vote for some Rs that have libertarian leanings (i.e. Paul, Amash, Massie, etc).  If  90% of the GOP held their values and remained as principled as them, I would register as a R again (stopped registering as a R after 2012 election).  I have voted libertarian since the 2012 election, even though the party is a shit show.

Part of S&L's problem is he doesn't realize that most libertarians also hate progressive ideology and therefore a lot of people on this forum whether they are R or L will bash them. 

posted by BoatShoes

Obviously Richard Cordray /s

Not familiar with him, I will check him out. 

posted by justincredible

I'm small-l libertarian as I find the national party to be a complete shit-show. 

Agreed.  They can't even decide wtf libertarianism and the chariperson is a pandering moron.

posted by SportsAndLady

Franklin Graham:

Presidential candidate & South Bend Mayor @PeteButtigieg is right—God doesn’t have a political party. But God does have commandments, laws & standards He gives us to live by. God doesn’t change. His Word is the same yesterday, today & forever. 1/3

Mayor Buttigieg says he’s a gay Christian. As a Christian I believe the Bible which defines homosexuality as sin, something to be repentant of, not something to be flaunted, praised or politicized. The Bible says marriage is between a man & a woman—not two men, not two women. 2/3

The core of the Christian faith is believing and following Jesus Christ, who God sent to be the Savior of the world—to save us from sin, to save us from hell, to save us from eternal damnation 3/3

 

Yes, lets hear more about how left the left has gotten

You're still rattled because CHS made a "im gay" comment about Buttigieg? Sheesh.  Nobody gives a fuck about Buttigieg.  He won't win, but if he did he would be the most tolerable out of any of the 100000 Dems running for president. 
 

posted by like_that

Thank you for explaining this, since S&L is intellectually incapable of answering a simple question.  I agree with some of what you say, but I still stand by the left shifting further left as data has shown and the type of politicians are being voted.  I said in 2016 the dems would have their own tea party movement, and they currently are dealing with it.  We will see how they handle it.

posted by BoatShoes

What I think S&L is getting at, I think, is that the majority of people inclined to libertarianism - say, being for legalizing drugs (something Democrats tend to support more) and lower income taxes (something Republicans tend to support more) generally seem to vote Republican more than Democrat when they're playing the two party game and, at least on this board in particular, spend an inordinate amount of political discussion on "tHe lEFT" - e.g. multiple threads on disgust with progressives. 

So while on the one hand you have the true Capital L Libertarians like Justin and O-Trap who will not abide either party -  you have the lower case l libertarians who'd probably prefer a robust libertarian party but vote R 99% of the time because by golly - while the GOP may be a complete fraud doing everything fiscally they railed on Obama about and be totally cool with infringing on property rights on social issues - goddamn those libz!

It's a phenomenon on the right - people who vote down ticket Republican and then say "I'm not a Republican though, I'm a libertarian!"

It'd be like me saying I'm not a Democrat even though I vote Democrat every time despite my hope that I could vote for an MMT-Party that wants to cut payroll taxes and sell securities to fund a Green New Deal. There are elements of the Democratic party that embarrass me and that I don't support but the reality is, in our political spectrum, I'm still a Democrat and a left-winger despite what I might want to call myself or vote for in a perfect world. 

 

S&L is incapable of explaining this, but thank you for translating for the kids table.  There are definitely those who identify as libertarian but vote for R.  Some do it while holding their noses as they see it as the only option to prevent the dems from winning.  Some do it, because they truly aren't libertarian.  There is also a group who will vote for some Rs that have libertarian leanings (i.e. Paul, Amash, Massie, etc).  If  90% of the GOP held their values and remained as principled as them, I would register as a R again (stopped registering as a R after 2012 election).  I have voted libertarian since the 2012 election, even though the party is a shit show.

Part of S&L's problem is he doesn't realize that most libertarians also hate progressive ideology and therefore a lot of people on this forum whether they are R or L will bash them. 

posted by BoatShoes

Obviously Richard Cordray /s

 

Not familiar with him, I will check him out. 

posted by justincredible

I'm small-l libertarian as I find the national party to be a complete shit-show. 

 

Agreed.  They can't even decide wtf libertarianism and the chariperson is a pandering moron.

posted by SportsAndLady

Franklin Graham:

Presidential candidate & South Bend Mayor @PeteButtigieg is right—God doesn’t have a political party. But God does have commandments, laws & standards He gives us to live by. God doesn’t change. His Word is the same yesterday, today & forever. 1/3

Mayor Buttigieg says he’s a gay Christian. As a Christian I believe the Bible which defines homosexuality as sin, something to be repentant of, not something to be flaunted, praised or politicized. The Bible says marriage is between a man & a woman—not two men, not two women. 2/3

The core of the Christian faith is believing and following Jesus Christ, who God sent to be the Savior of the world—to save us from sin, to save us from hell, to save us from eternal damnation 3/3

 

Yes, lets hear more about how left the left has gotten

You're still rattled because CHS made a "im gay" comment about Buttigieg? Sheesh.  Nobody gives a fuck about Buttigieg.  He won't win, but if he did he would be the most tolerable out of any of the 100000 Dems running for president. 
 

 

Blow me dude. Has nothing to do with Buttigueg. That’s a right winged conservative asking a gay person in 2019 to repent. And yet the left are the ones being extreme. 

posted by BoatShoes

What I think S&L is getting at, I think, is that the majority of people inclined to libertarianism - say, being for legalizing drugs (something Democrats tend to support more) and lower income taxes (something Republicans tend to support more) generally seem to vote Republican more than Democrat when they're playing the two party game and, at least on this board in particular, spend an inordinate amount of political discussion on "tHe lEFT" - e.g. multiple threads on disgust with progressives. 

So while on the one hand you have the true Capital L Libertarians like Justin and O-Trap who will not abide either party -  you have the lower case l libertarians who'd probably prefer a robust libertarian party but vote R 99% of the time because by golly - while the GOP may be a complete fraud doing everything fiscally they railed on Obama about and be totally cool with infringing on property rights on social issues - goddamn those libz!

It's a phenomenon on the right - people who vote down ticket Republican and then say "I'm not a Republican though, I'm a libertarian!"

It'd be like me saying I'm not a Democrat even though I vote Democrat every time despite my hope that I could vote for an MMT-Party that wants to cut payroll taxes and sell securities to fund a Green New Deal. There are elements of the Democratic party that embarrass me and that I don't support but the reality is, in our political spectrum, I'm still a Democrat and a left-winger despite what I might want to call myself or vote for in a perfect world. 

LOL.   wow .....So much effort to say nothing.

posted by SportsAndLady

So this is the part where you call people trolls or a completely other poster (that you didn’t agree with) because they call you out? So far so good, this all checks out!

No, this is the part where I call you an idiot for having no facts or science behind your position.  And trying to troll other people hoping that they are more ignorant than you.

Fortunately for you the world will always need sneakers.

posted by BoatShoes

To paraphrase Nancy Pelosi of all people dunking on AOC - at the end of the day the loud and shrill identity politics obsessed left is a small element of the Democratic party

Do you honestly believe that?  Would you like to make a significant bet?  Where would we draw the line?  Free college?  Free healthcare?  Felons voting?  I'm curious as to what you'd define as "radical left".

posted by jmog

The left has “left” their classical belief in the government not telling us what we should do socially (belief in legalizing some drugs, same sex marriage, etc). The modern left has started to believe in the government telling us what we are allowed to say (proper pronouns) that speech needs to be abridged (micro aggressions), the SJWs, etc. 

 

Classical liberalism believed in free speech, the modern left shuts down/wants to shut down opposing views. 

 

And to say that these are “just the fringe” is plain asinine and not paying attention to modern candidates on the left.  Of the current candidates for the DNC for POTUS only really Buttigieg and Gabbard are not pandering to this modern left theology (I am not including Biden yet because he hasn’t declared).

Pelosi is now considered more moderate now and is trying to reign in the new DNC members of the house that have fell off the left wing wagon. Let that sink in, Pelosi, from one of the most liberal districts in the US, is now considered moderate in her party.  The middle and right used to consider her a loon but the new loons are even farther “left”.

 

 

 

 

You say "The Modern Left wants to shut down speech". Where are the libs with power advocating the force of gov't to restrict conservative speech? SJW's calling people the latest "-ist" on the internet - while I find it stupid - is not even jn the same universe.

There is no movement in the American left to make the GOVERNMENT regulate speech or microagressions or other SJW crap. Again, internet SJW's complaining on twitter, Facebook and blogs nobody reads about what X conservative said being triggering - while idiocy - is not the same as the American left enacting Chinese style gov't regulation of speech, etc.

So this "facist left" really is a phantom menace. There is no one in the American left that wants to use the force of gov't to suppress speech. Idiotic SJW activists in their private, free capacity protesting and using their own free speech to call conservatives racists, etc. is not the same as wanting the gov't to disallow speech deemed offensive. 

I know of no elected Democrat calling for gov't to make content-based restrictions on the first Amendment. 

But hey DJT on the other hand has on multiple occasions floated the prospect of taking away FCC licenses from critical liberal media organizations. But hey, let's worry about liberal nobodies! 

The only issue I can think of where the SJW's have even approached what you suggest - I.e. trying to get gov't to regulate speech related activity offensive to SJW's is in the harassment of "Christian" enterprises that refuse to cater to gays via Civil Rights litigation - and they are losing. 

posted by gut

LOL.   wow .....So much effort to say nothing.

Guy's like Gut vote R down the ticket and call themselves libertarians while also finding that "...well ACTUALLY I'm a libertarian" rarely plays well with women so they go home and post angrily about Obama on Valentines Day. 

posted by gut

No, this is the part where I call you an idiot for having no facts or science behind your position.  And trying to troll other people hoping that they are more ignorant than you.

Fortunately for you the world will always need sneakers.

Peak internet is serious business? 

posted by like_that

Thank you for explaining this, since S&L is intellectually incapable of answering a simple question.  I agree with some of what you say, but I still stand by the left shifting further left as data has shown and the type of politicians are being voted.  I said in 2016 the dems would have their own tea party movement, and they currently are dealing with it.  We will see how they handle it.

posted by BoatShoes

What I think S&L is getting at, I think, is that the majority of people inclined to libertarianism - say, being for legalizing drugs (something Democrats tend to support more) and lower income taxes (something Republicans tend to support more) generally seem to vote Republican more than Democrat when they're playing the two party game and, at least on this board in particular, spend an inordinate amount of political discussion on "tHe lEFT" - e.g. multiple threads on disgust with progressives. 

So while on the one hand you have the true Capital L Libertarians like Justin and O-Trap who will not abide either party -  you have the lower case l libertarians who'd probably prefer a robust libertarian party but vote R 99% of the time because by golly - while the GOP may be a complete fraud doing everything fiscally they railed on Obama about and be totally cool with infringing on property rights on social issues - goddamn those libz!

It's a phenomenon on the right - people who vote down ticket Republican and then say "I'm not a Republican though, I'm a libertarian!"

It'd be like me saying I'm not a Democrat even though I vote Democrat every time despite my hope that I could vote for an MMT-Party that wants to cut payroll taxes and sell securities to fund a Green New Deal. There are elements of the Democratic party that embarrass me and that I don't support but the reality is, in our political spectrum, I'm still a Democrat and a left-winger despite what I might want to call myself or vote for in a perfect world. 

 

S&L is incapable of explaining this, but thank you for translating for the kids table.  There are definitely those who identify as libertarian but vote for R.  Some do it while holding their noses as they see it as the only option to prevent the dems from winning.  Some do it, because they truly aren't libertarian.  There is also a group who will vote for some Rs that have libertarian leanings (i.e. Paul, Amash, Massie, etc).  If  90% of the GOP held their values and remained as principled as them, I would register as a R again (stopped registering as a R after 2012 election).  I have voted libertarian since the 2012 election, even though the party is a shit show.

Part of S&L's problem is he doesn't realize that most libertarians also hate progressive ideology and therefore a lot of people on this forum whether they are R or L will bash them. 

posted by BoatShoes

Obviously Richard Cordray /s

 

Not familiar with him, I will check him out. 

posted by justincredible

I'm small-l libertarian as I find the national party to be a complete shit-show. 

 

Agreed.  They can't even decide wtf libertarianism and the chariperson is a pandering moron.

posted by SportsAndLady

Franklin Graham:

Presidential candidate & South Bend Mayor @PeteButtigieg is right—God doesn’t have a political party. But God does have commandments, laws & standards He gives us to live by. God doesn’t change. His Word is the same yesterday, today & forever. 1/3

Mayor Buttigieg says he’s a gay Christian. As a Christian I believe the Bible which defines homosexuality as sin, something to be repentant of, not something to be flaunted, praised or politicized. The Bible says marriage is between a man & a woman—not two men, not two women. 2/3

The core of the Christian faith is believing and following Jesus Christ, who God sent to be the Savior of the world—to save us from sin, to save us from hell, to save us from eternal damnation 3/3

 

Yes, lets hear more about how left the left has gotten

You're still rattled because CHS made a "im gay" comment about Buttigieg? Sheesh.  Nobody gives a fuck about Buttigieg.  He won't win, but if he did he would be the most tolerable out of any of the 100000 Dems running for president. 
 

 

Richard Cordray was the Dem candidate for governor in Ohio. Looks like the nerd from 30 Rock and was Obama's appointee to the CFPB. Basically a standard liberal Democrat in my view so I was being facetious because Jmog said he voted for him over Mike DeWine when I personally don't see how a libertarian would consider Cordray the lesser of two evils but to each his own. 

posted by like_that

You're still rattled because CHS made a "im gay" comment about Buttigieg? Sheesh.  Nobody gives a fuck about Buttigieg.  He won't win, but if he did he would be the most tolerable out of any of the 100000 Dems running for president. 
 

 

It would be nice if we could frankenstein a dem candidate together lol. There's probably 1 or 2 things I like from a handful of the dem candidates but as a whole I have to reject them. I like Gabbard wanting to end wars, Yang's wanting to get rid of a lot of bureacracy, etc. In a perfect world we could build the monster from scratch.

But as much as I complain, I do enjoy having my own personal line item veto when it comes to ideology.

Back in 2016 almost every single democrat running for office, locally in my area, was "fired" or ignored.  I think a hefty amount of them have taken that step back and reevaluated what they wanted to chase. And honestly I think it did them a lot of good. Now, I know that the higher up in scale you go the more impossible it is to do that, but it sure would be nice if they did.