ernest_t_bass wrote: Another for me is the "why do good people, who don't believe, go to hell?"

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In all three scenarios, the life lived is the EXACT same.

That, for me, as a TOUGH one.

I think it's hard to say that you could live the EXACT same life, because if you truly accept Christ, your life isn't the EXACT same. You would hopefully live for Him, study His word, etc. You wouldn't do that if you never hear about Him or reject Him. If you accept Him and he's in your heart your life couldn't be the same as if He wasn't. That's just my thoughts on that.

As for the original question, I struggle most with actually sitting down and reading the Bible daily. I just seem to end up spending my time doing things that aren't important and really a waste. (TV, video games, movies etc.) I constantly tell myself to just be disciplined and do it, but it's something I always struggle with.

hangonsloopy wrote:I think it's hard to say that you could live the EXACT same life, because if you truly accept Christ, your life isn't the EXACT same.

So you would hope. However, the situation is merely hypothetical, with no variables.

hangonsloopy wrote:As for the original question, I struggle most with actually sitting down and reading the Bible daily. I just seem to end up spending my time doing things that aren't important and really a waste. (TV, video games, movies etc.) I constantly tell myself to just be disciplined and do it, but it's something I always struggle with.

I can see your struggle here. I'd say that most Christians struggle the same, but not just with reading the bible.

Like, going to church. We don't want to spend 1-hour there, but we'll go sit a few hours through a movie or athletic event.

Earnest.... I can't help but think that you are worried about being "cheated" out of something if you chose to believe one way or another.
I am a firm believer that no one needs a church to re-enforce thier beleifs. It is only natural for you to question your faith.... or someon elses faith when things are contradictory in you mind.

Ask that "little voice" within yourself you questions in either contemplation or prayer. Just be prepared to listen (or see) the answers that you ask.

Well, I guess first off I should mention that me and religion (for religions sake) have had a rocky road. But I still believe in my heart, soul and mind that there is God.
I also believe that there is only 1 God, but different cultures call him by a different name(s) and/or worship differently. But that is another discussion altogether.

There are two things that I struggle with the most.

- Patience
There are too many days when I have very little of it, and I know that it affects and has effect on the people (loved ones) around me. Thankfully, those people do have patience with me and let alot of my faults go

- Decisions
What I mean by that is this; The decisions and choices that I make - I often wonder about my intentions.
For instance: I ask myself
"Did you decide to do that because you knew it was the right thing to do in your mind?
Or did you make that decision/choice because it came from your heart?"

I really struggle with that issue because of the situation of what I'm doing in life right now. For those that don't know, and I really don't want to go into it too much right now, I take care of my mom and stepdad.
So, my questions of that nature are definitely personal and have everything to do with what I believe about God.
I often humor myself by thinking that God surely must have had it with me and my questioning by now

And then I usually get fed up worry about it and just amend the two questions together. Which brings me back around again to patience LOL

And BTW,

I too, find myself having the same struggles that alot of the other posters have had/go through.

ernest_t_bass wrote:

hangonsloopy wrote:As for the original question, I struggle most with actually sitting down and reading the Bible daily. I just seem to end up spending my time doing things that aren't important and really a waste. (TV, video games, movies etc.) I constantly tell myself to just be disciplined and do it, but it's something I always struggle with.

I can see your struggle here. I'd say that most Christians struggle the same, but not just with reading the bible.

Like, going to church. We don't want to spend 1-hour there, but we'll go sit a few hours through a movie or athletic event.

Yeah, I used to not really want to go to church. Our church is blessed with a young adult service that has been a huge blessing. Our pastor is awesome, but for me, the music makes me want to be there. Thankfully when we started this service we started a band that played music that was appealing to younger people. I am lucky enough to be the drummer. Ever since we have grown so much and I love going to church. I think regular church can be a turn off to younger people because the music really is boring.

I'm sure it's not that way for everyone, but for me good, loud, rock style music in church is no the norm and it makes me, and many other people, excited to come to church. Because they are energized, not bored with old hymn's from an organ.

Devils Advocate (or shall I say Tippy?) ... Your post makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

Since I started the topic of "what gives you the most trouble day-to-day" I will add this as well:

My life (the path I have chosen in my 28 years) has lead me to be an extreme cynic, and I have a HUGE problem with authority figures. I have a big enough problem, that I cannot stand ANYONE telling me what to do. If I am to do something, then I want it to be of my own free will, and not something that is "expected" of me.

So, that being said... one of my other "biggest" struggles would be completely letting go. I always feel that I MUST be in control of my life, the surroundings in my life, and everything that happens in my life. The minute something goes wrong, the cynicism comes right out.

cbus4life wrote:

Con_Alma wrote: Eternal damnation in the eyes of a Christian is being without the Creator. That's not very damning to

People don't "happen" to be Muslim. Don't they choose to be? If they do they believe they will be eternally in bliss so you have nothing to worry about.

The other side of the coin is that you when/if you are in heaven you won't care who else is/is not there/ The pure peaceful bliss and love you will be feeling coming from the Father will be yor focus not others.

Thanks for the response.

So, in the bolded section, are you saying that their is a possibility that there is more than one afterlife, depending on your belief structure, and that everyone ends up in some sort of eternal "bliss" if they live a life according to their particular religion. Honest question.

Can you expand on the question inclusive of more than one afterlife? I'm not sure I understand it.

Keep in mind In the bold area above I was commenting on the potential beliefs of a Muslim whereby they would have a certain expectation of afterlife that existed without the acceptance of Christ.

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but I have a problem with the overall Christian idea of heaven. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that you can be a mass murderer and still go to heaven so long as you confess your sins and accept Christ? At the same time, an Atheist who devotes his/her entire life to helping others does not get in for being a non-believer.

I am Jewish, and I must say that I really do love my religion's whole approach to heaven. The fact is the focus simply isn't on "getting in to heaven," but rather living in such a way that gives you the best life here on Earth. Yes we do believe in heaven and hell, but probably not in the same way other religions do. Judaism allows for debate on many topics, so you can likely find multiple descriptions of the after life. Here is one of my favorites:

I once ascended to the firmaments. I first went to see Hell and the sight was horrifying. Row after
row of tables was laden with platters of sumptuous food, yet the people seated around the tables
were pale and emaciated, moaning with hunger. As I came closer, I understood their
predicament. Every person held a full spoon. But their arms were splinted with wooden slats, so
they could not bend either elbow to bring the food to their mouths. It broke my heart to hear the
tortured groans of these poor people, as they held their food so near but could not consume it.
Next I went to visit Heaven. I was surprised to see the same setting I had witnessed in Hell —
row after row of long tables laden with food. But in contrast to Hell, the people here in Heaven
were sitting contentedly talking with each other, obviously sated from their sumptuous meal. As I
came closer, I was amazed to discover that here, too, each person had his arms splinted on
wooden slats that prevented him from bending his elbows. How, then, did they manage to eat?
As I watched, a man picked up his spoon and dug it into the dish before him. Then he stretched
across the table and fed the person across from him! The recipient of this kindness thanked him
and returned the favor by leaning back across the table to feed his benefactor.
I suddenly understood. Heaven and Hell offer the same circumstances and conditions. The
critical difference lies in the way the people treat each other.

ernest_t_bass wrote: Another for me is the "why do good people, who don't believe, go to hell?"

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In all three scenarios, the life lived is the EXACT same.

That, for me, as a TOUGH one.

I was raised Catholic and I've always been taught by priests that you are a good person you can go to heaven even if you follow another religion or if you have never heard of christ.

The biggest problem for me is corruption throughout the history of the church along with the fact that the church has continued to change and make up new rules over time. I think some rules are bullshit so I simply try to live a good life and do what Jesus taught.

wizecracker wrote:

ernest_t_bass wrote: Another for me is the "why do good people, who don't believe, go to hell?"

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In all three scenarios, the life lived is the EXACT same.

That, for me, as a TOUGH one.

I was raised Catholic and I've always been taught by priests that you are a good person you can go to heaven even if you follow another religion or if you have never heard of christ.

The biggest problem for me is corruption throughout the history of the church along with the fact that the church has continued to change and make up new rules over time. I think some rules are bullshit so I simply try to live a good life and do what Jesus taught.

Sounds like a good way to look at things. I'm sure Jesus would want more followers like you.

1. In my everyday walk with God my most troubling/provoking aspect of my spiritual life is my thought lift. Matthew 5-7 talks all about our thought life and it is my most convicting set of scriptures.

2. My only "question" I struggle with is this. What happens to someone who never heard about Jesus? I understand what the Bible says about people who have heard and rejected or didn't accept him, but what about the old question "the guy in middle of no where Africa who never heard" is always in the back of my mind. What happens to those people?

Oh, and my belief on the topic I just listed and the similar one posted by Ernest is this...

If you truly never heard of Christ, then you live by the same standards they did in OT times, live a good life and you make it to heaven.
If you have heard of Christ, no matter how good or bad you lived your life it comes down to whether you accepted or rejected him on whether you go to heaven.

I'm not saying I'm 100% right, just saying what I believe to be what the Bible implies.

Websurfinbird wrote: Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but I have a problem with the overall Christian idea of heaven. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that you can be a mass murderer and still go to heaven so long as you confess your sins and accept Christ? At the same time, an Atheist who devotes his/her entire life to helping others does not get in for being a non-believer.

I am Jewish, and I must say that I really do love my religion's whole approach to heaven. The fact is the focus simply isn't on "getting in to heaven," but rather living in such a way that gives you the best life here on Earth. Yes we do believe in heaven and hell, but probably not in the same way other religions do. Judaism allows for debate on many topics, so you can likely find multiple descriptions of the after life. Here is one of my favorites:

I once ascended to the firmaments. I first went to see Hell and the sight was horrifying. Row after
row of tables was laden with platters of sumptuous food, yet the people seated around the tables
were pale and emaciated, moaning with hunger. As I came closer, I understood their
predicament. Every person held a full spoon. But their arms were splinted with wooden slats, so
they could not bend either elbow to bring the food to their mouths. It broke my heart to hear the
tortured groans of these poor people, as they held their food so near but could not consume it.
Next I went to visit Heaven. I was surprised to see the same setting I had witnessed in Hell —
row after row of long tables laden with food. But in contrast to Hell, the people here in Heaven
were sitting contentedly talking with each other, obviously sated from their sumptuous meal. As I
came closer, I was amazed to discover that here, too, each person had his arms splinted on
wooden slats that prevented him from bending his elbows. How, then, did they manage to eat?
As I watched, a man picked up his spoon and dug it into the dish before him. Then he stretched
across the table and fed the person across from him! The recipient of this kindness thanked him
and returned the favor by leaning back across the table to feed his benefactor.
I suddenly understood. Heaven and Hell offer the same circumstances and conditions. The
critical difference lies in the way the people treat each other.

Actually if you are Jewish you should completely understand the "mass murderer" getting to go to heaven if he confesses.

In ancient Judaism (old testament, Torah, etc) your sins were completely forgiven if you confessed and had the right sacrafice (usually animal). You confessed your sins to the priest/High Priest/rabbi and the priest sacraficed some animal on the Arc of the Covenant. If you did this all of your sins were forgiven by Yahweh (God).

In Christianity the High Priest you confess your sins to is God/Jesus and Jesus was that particular sacrafice.

Its a perfect symbolism between the two religions.

Here's another issue, with which I struggle. Creationism vs. geology. Notice, I didn't say evolution.

(Note: I don't believe man came from monkeys, however I do believe in survival of the fittest. I don't feel like debating [on this thread, anyway]. That is just my belief on that one).

I want to believe what many Christian scholars will say, that "the earth has not been around billions of year," but when I hear "facts" based on geological principles, I find those hard NOT to believe. I think that many Christian scholars will say that it was all by the great flood, but I just don't know if I buy it.

I can explain the geology thing well having a background in chemistry.

One of the most commonly used radiometric dating technique is Uranium-Lead.

The background used in U-Pb dating system is basically that Uranium decays down in something like 14 steps (8 'major' steps) to lead which is where its finally "stable" and doesn't decay anymore. The half life of this decay is 4.47 billion years. Half life of radioactive isotopes is basically if I have 1 pound of it now, in 4.47 billion years half of it will be lead and half uranium.

Now, that's the background, the assumptions they use is that in a piece of rock, every bit of the lead isotope they find, they assume it came from uranium. They don't allow for the idea that some lead could have been there already or the fact that there are around 8 other radioactive elements that also decay down to the same lead isotope. They assume that 100% of the lead isotope came from uranium.

In radioactive decay, when an atom releases an "alpha particle", equivalent to a helium nucleus (atom with no electrons) it releases enough energy to burn a microscopic "halo" around the atom. Even though uranium has 14 steps to get to lead, in only 8 of those steps does it release an alpha particle.

This is important because when electron microscopes look at these rocks, the average # of "halos" typically is in the range of 3 or 4 (can't remember off the top of my head) which indicates a polonium isotope as the source, not necessarily uranium.

So, in the end, the assumptions made by the geologists completely alter the results.

I could give similar commentary on Carbon 14 and any other radiometric dating techniques.

ernest_t_bass wrote: Here's another issue, with which I struggle. Creationism vs. geology. Notice, I didn't say evolution.

(Note: I don't believe man came from monkeys, however I do believe in survival of the fittest. I don't feel like debating [on this thread, anyway]. That is just my belief on that one).

I want to believe what many Christian scholars will say, that "the earth has not been around billions of year," but when I hear "facts" based on geological principles, I find those hard NOT to believe. I think that many Christian scholars will say that it was all by the great flood, but I just don't know if I buy it.
[/quote


It's very refreshing to see a dicussion concerning religion, and Christianity in particular here, and have it be civil, not condescending or inflammatory. kudos to you Ernest for keeping it that way.
Some of the issues brought up here; ie the struggles, etc are ones many of us have. Trying to live a Chrstian life in a very un-christian and dark world is trying at times to say the least. I think the key is focusing on the person of Jesus: WWJD has become so modernized and trivialized, it's become the butt of jokes instead of a way of life. Too many churches and too many "Christians" don't live like Jesus, and thus the world's view of Christianity and Christians is not at all what I think Jesus intended. He would be appalled if walked the earth today and saw what was done and said in the name of Christianity. having said that, I way too often fail to live that life---it's certainly my struggle to try to show the love of Jesus on a daily basis when the world is basically full of jerks and plain old mean and nasty people.
Speaking directly to the creation question raised above: I consider myself somewhat of a scientist, and have a special interest in reading books on creation, physica, chemistry, etc. I have no problem accepting what science has to say and creation. The Big Bang theory, almost by definition, supports creation as it says basically something (the universe) came out of nothing some 15 billion years ago. A number of good books have been written on the subject--some good ones being "The Genesis Question" and "The Science of God".

There's plenty of reason to doubt the dating methods of modern science, as described above by jmog: many assumptions are made when dating rocks. The REAL answer is, no one knows how old any rock really is unless the rock was formed in modern times. For example, rocks from a Hawaiian volcano that erupted were 'dated' as being anywhere from 2 million to 20 million years old (using argon-potassium dating method) when in fact the rocks were formed less than 100 years ago. The dating material can migrate in and out of rocks; there is no way to tell if a rock had how much 'parent' vs 'daughter' element in it when first formed. Scientists who claim they know how old the rocks are, are calibrating it according to a belief system more than science.

Food for thought: blood cells and blood vessels that were still elastic have been found in Tyrannasaurus bones in the Southwest US. Evolution believers don't have an answer for what is staring them in the face except to proclaim a 'miracle' (sound like science or religion?) of sorts for the blood vessels and blood cells to still be there in the shape they are in, or try to explain away the cells as some sort of mineral transformation. They are ignoring the possibility that the dinosaur is not 68 million years old BECAUSE OF THEIR BELIEF IN EVOLUTION, not because of science.

The belief in evolution is the basis for the moral relativism of our times; affecting such issues as abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc. Christians should arm themselves with a good book on apologetics and read up on materials from places such as Creation Ministries International or the Institute for Creation Research. Both sites often feature recent findings in science that support the Creation/Christian viewpoint.

Here's one on geology: http://www.icr.org/article/5140/

Here's an article from the Institute for Creation Research: the claim that humans evolved from some ancestor of both man and apes has been shown false.

http://www.icr.org/article/5136/

74Leps wrote:The belief in evolution is the basis for the moral relativism of our times; affecting such issues as abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc. Christians should arm themselves with a good book on apologetics and read up on materials from places such as Creation Ministries International or the Institute for Creation Research. Both sites often feature recent findings in science that support the Creation/Christian viewpoint.

True but good luck with that. Haven't you learned yet? Liberalism means being open-minded to all points of view except, of course, Christian ones.

74leps brought up a good example of what I talk about when I give creation vs evolution evidence in front of churches (I have done this at about 5 or 6 churches now) and when I teach it to my junior high sunday school class.

Hemoglobin was found in said dinosaur fossil and biologists KNOW that hemoglobin only "survives" several thousand years (have it in my notes but can't remember off the top of my head) and they have no answer on how this dinosaur fossil has hemoglobin surviving in it.

My only geological (self) explanation, is that "in the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth." Between that time and the time God created man in His own image, I can honestly see there being millions/billions/trillions of year. If God is an everlasting deity, then that is but a blink of an eye to him.

ernest_t_bass wrote: My only geological (self) explanation, is that "in the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth." Between that time and the time God created man in His own image, I can honestly see there being millions/billions/trillions of year. If God is an everlasting deity, then that is but a blink of an eye to him.

Ah, the "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Its a very viable theory, still completely kills evolution, just doesn't kill the "billions" of years we hear from geologists.

It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame.

believer wrote:

74Leps wrote:The belief in evolution is the basis for the moral relativism of our times; affecting such issues as abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc. Christians should arm themselves with a good book on apologetics and read up on materials from places such as Creation Ministries International or the Institute for Creation Research. Both sites often feature recent findings in science that support the Creation/Christian viewpoint.

True but good luck with that. Haven't you learned yet? Liberalism means being open-minded to all points of view except, of course, Christian ones.

What does this have to do with Liberalism?

And, that is a pretty sweeping generalization, and not really based on anything substantial.

Hell, even the ACLU has defended the rights of Christians in the past.

Take a deep breath. I enjoy your posts, but this whole line you throw out all the time is getting old.