BoatShoes;440490 wrote:Well, I suppose, even after seeking philosophical justifications for my christian beliefs, upon being up close and personal to what seemed to me to be incomprehensible suffering of children, I became like Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov; and that answer didn't quite seem satisfying anymore and neither did any fideistic support; an emotional begrudging despair overcame any reason. It's not God that I don't accept...but I must respectfully return him my ticket.

Yeah wouldn't it be great if there was no suffering or pain on Earth. Actually thats how God designed it but we all know what happened in the Garden of Eden and everything changed.
It's a hard thing to reason out in our human minds as to the answers of things such as those you brought up but one thing that doesn't change is the promises of God remain forever.
Jesus said "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world" John 16:33

redfalcon;523614 wrote:I don't believe in religion. I'm not sure about God, but I definitely don't believe in the biblical version. That being said, I was raised Methodist and I often go through the "What if I am wrong" debate with myself. I still think the scientific evidence greatly out weights the religious aspects, though, and the other point which I can't get over is that if there is a God, I am pretty sure that the "well I will believe so that I don't go to hell" system isn't the way he intended it to work, anyway. I hope I'm right, though. It'll be getting a little warm for me for a while if I am wrong.

One, as a scientist I'd love to see the science that "out weighs" the existence of God . Through science God can neither be proven to exist nor proven to not exist.

jmog;524991 wrote:One, as a scientist I'd love to see the science that "out weighs" the existence of God . Through science God can neither be proven to exist nor proven to not exist.

The great thing about God is even if you deny He exists it you imply the possibility that He does. God made us all free agents. Drives people crazy.

Bumped for Lowry.

I'm a religious liberal (socially, anyway) . . . there are PLENTY of us . . . but go ahead and keep generalizing and stereotyping . . . and fair-minded people will go on assuming your posts lack substance, given your obvious bias.

More people really ought to try discussing the merits of actual issues, without negatively injecting labels into the mix . . . it's absolutely childish and ridiculous, and a big part of what's wrong with the political dialogue in this country. I mean really, are people actually being influenced by these faux news programs and the fat-headed idiots who anchor them . . . based on a lot of these posts, apparently they are. Which is precisely why many of us just choose to ignore this mess and the country is left to choose from a diluted pool of political participants.

Sad.

Skyhook79;524972 wrote:Yeah wouldn't it be great if there was no suffering or pain on Earth. Actually thats how God designed it but we all know what happened in the Garden of Eden and everything changed.
It's a hard thing to reason out in our human minds as to the answers of things such as those you brought up but one thing that doesn't change is the promises of God remain forever.
Jesus said "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world" John 16:33

See, this is what I was referring to in the other thread. This answer just reeks of fideism. It purports to provide an answer grounded in certainty but that really isn't the case at all and just appeals to the limits of human reason. I'd rather just say I'm not sure than attempt a truth claim at this point.

ICEMAN59;605395 wrote:More people really ought to try discussing the merits of actual issues, without negatively injecting labels into the mix . . . it's absolutely childish and ridiculous, and a big part of what's wrong with the political dialogue in this country. I mean really, are people actually being influenced by these faux news programs and the fat-headed idiots who anchor them . . ..

Liberals love to lecture folks about generalizing, stereotyping and labeling while simultaneously generalizing, stereotyping, and labeling those they lecture.

believer;605535 wrote:Liberals love to lecture folks about generalizing, stereotyping and labeling while simultaneously generalizing, stereotyping, and labeling those they lecture.

The fat-headed idiots refers to talking heads of all political persuasion, be it MSNBC, FOX, etc . . . so, I guess I fail to see your point. Nice use of the
"bold" feature, though. I think you missed the point . . . . the liberal - bad/good, conservative - bad/good thing, it's lame.

^^^It doesn't negate the fact that you used stereotyping, labeling, and generalization to make your argument against those who do the same rather than using facts to discuss the merits of the issue.

The use of "childish", "faux news", "fat-headed idiots", etc. only demonstrates that you too are a member of the "diluted pool of political participants." No?

believer;605805 wrote:^^^It doesn't negate the fact that you used stereotyping, labeling, and generalization to make your argument against those who do the same rather than using facts to discuss the merits of the issue.

The use of "childish", "faux news", "fat-headed idiots", etc. only demonstrates that you too are a member of the "diluted pool of political participants." No?

Haha . . . OK.

Waste of my time.

BoatShoes;605458 wrote:See, this is what I was referring to in the other thread. This answer just reeks of fideism. It purports to provide an answer grounded in certainty but that really isn't the case at all and just appeals to the limits of human reason. I'd rather just say I'm not sure than attempt a truth claim at this point.

Jesus is the truth,the light and the way. I will continue to walk by Faith you may call it "fideism" but I don't. God tells us that not all things will be revealed to us on Earth but we will have fullness of knowledge in Heaven or Hell.

Skyhook79;606190 wrote:Jesus is the truth,the light and the way. I will continue to walk by Faith you may call it "fideism" but I don't. God tells us that not all things will be revealed to us on Earth but we will have fullness of knowledge in Heaven or Hell.

I'm going to be honest, these kinds of answers only frustrated me as a non-believing individual. I am only thankful that I found Christians who did not adopt this mentality when it came to explaining to me the love of Christ. I hope you know that I mean no offense to you personally, but that I can sympathize with those who point out that a person who does not believe is given no more reason to do so by such a statement.

believer;605805 wrote:^^^It doesn't negate the fact that you used stereotyping, labeling, and generalization to make your argument against those who do the same rather than using facts to discuss the merits of the issue.

The use of "childish", "faux news", "fat-headed idiots", etc. only demonstrates that you too are a member of the "diluted pool of political participants." No?

I don't think he meant "faux news" like many people use it to make a play on "Fox News". I think he meant it as a general lable for all the news commentary people.

Also, I was trying to sell hams today and some dude tried to talk to me about Jesus and was asking if I pray everyday and such. I was nice at first and just kind of let him talk, but then he kept asking and I had to tell him that I was trying to work and that he was going to have to leave me alone and if he couldn't abide that then I'd have to call security. I was nice about it but I was trying to do my job and it was rude of him.

O-Trap;606715 wrote:I'm going to be honest, these kinds of answers only frustrated me as a non-believing individual. I am only thankful that I found Christians who did not adopt this mentality when it came to explaining to me the love of Christ. I hope you know that I mean no offense to you personally, but that I can sympathize with those who point out that a person who does not believe is given no more reason to do so by such a statement.

I'm curious to know what reason you would give a non-believer to cause them to want to believe?

O-Trap;606715 wrote:I'm going to be honest, these kinds of answers only frustrated me as a non-believing individual. I am only thankful that I found Christians who did not adopt this mentality when it came to explaining to me the love of Christ. I hope you know that I mean no offense to you personally, but that I can sympathize with those who point out that a person who does not believe is given no more reason to do so by such a statement.

Scripture frustrates you?

Honestly, the only "religious" people that have tried to push their beliefs onto me was Jehovah's Witnesses. Who, by the way, my stepfather loves to debate them (he's staunchly catholic). Several years ago he invited 3 people who were door-knocking inside and about an hour later they left either angry or frustrated, not sure. It was hilarious!

Skyhook79;607933 wrote:Scripture frustrates you?

Not at all. People who use Scripture as a cop-out for not thinking for themselves frustrate me.

O-Trap;608606 wrote:Not at all. People who use Scripture as a cop-out for not thinking for themselves frustrate me.

Cop out?? So if you try and follow scripture and apply it to your life your a "cop out"? You make a personal decision on whether to follow Jesus's words. That is thinking for yourself.
If there is a different way to enter Heaven other than thru Jesus please enlighten me.

Skyhook79;608792 wrote:Cop out?? So if you try and follow scripture and apply it to your life your a "cop out"? You make a personal decision on whether to follow Jesus's words. That is thinking for yourself.
If there is a different way to enter Heaven other than thru Jesus please enlighten me.

I think what he is saying is... Instead of simply listing scripture as rebuttal or an answer to a question, apply the scripture to your own thought out response. Anyone can list scripture, but when you apply it to a well thought response, it goes further to show that you actually know what you're talking about and have invested the time into thinking about it.

ernest_t_bass;608796 wrote:I think what he is saying is... Instead of simply listing scripture as rebuttal or an answer to a question, apply the scripture to your own thought out response. Anyone can list scripture, but when you apply it to a well thought response, it goes further to show that you actually know what you're talking about and have invested the time into thinking about it.

Moreover, applying Scripture to someone who doesn't accept Scripture is nothing but an exercise in futility. It reminds me of a David Cross standup skit when he tries to discuss the war in Iraq with a woman who has bumper stickers that allude to it. Her responses are constantly nothing but other bumper sticker one-liners.

When I used to ask "why" about Bible verses that were spoken to me, I always got another trite Bible verse cop-out, like "his ways are higher than our ways," or "do not test the Lord," or some other such appeal. No thought. No willingness to actually inquire any further into anything.

If you're NOT a Bible-believer, then appealing to the Bible doesn't work. It's no more legitimate than expecting an accuser to believe a defendant on trial for burglary when he says he didn't do it. If you already don't believe it, using it as a reference to prove itself doesn't work.

I do believe that the Bible is the inspired Work of God (Word of God, but better understood today using the word "Work" I think). I believe that John 14:6 is true. However, people spouting the Bible and then either appealing TO the Bible for their defense or chalking it up to "faith" (my BIGGEST pet peeve) are NOT my reason for arriving in a life I hope to dedicate to serving God.

O-Trap;608859 wrote:Moreover, applying Scripture to someone who doesn't accept Scripture is nothing but an exercise in futility. It reminds me of a David Cross standup skit when he tries to discuss the war in Iraq with a woman who has bumper stickers that allude to it. Her responses are constantly nothing but other bumper sticker one-liners.

When I used to ask "why" about Bible verses that were spoken to me, I always got another trite Bible verse cop-out, like "his ways are higher than our ways," or "do not test the Lord," or some other such appeal. No thought. No willingness to actually inquire any further into anything.

If you're NOT a Bible-believer, then appealing to the Bible doesn't work. It's no more legitimate than expecting an accuser to believe a defendant on trial for burglary when he says he didn't do it. If you already don't believe it, using it as a reference to prove itself doesn't work.

I do believe that the Bible is the inspired Work of God (Word of God, but better understood today using the word "Work" I think). I believe that John 14:6 is true. However, people spouting the Bible and then either appealing TO the Bible for their defense or chalking it up to "faith" (my BIGGEST pet peeve) are NOT my reason for arriving in a life I hope to dedicate to serving God.

I agree, O-Trap.

However, I've had many heated discussions with non-believers who have injected, "and so where in the Bible does your God say that?"

Is that an appropriate time to apply Scripture to someone who doesn't accept Scripture or is it still just an exercise in futility? Or should I - by "faith" - hope that in my doing so (IE: sharing Scripture with the non-believer) that the Holy Spirit will do His "work" in that person...sort of plant the seed?

I was a scoffer at one time too. But someone had the courage of sharing God's Word (or Work) with me. I'm glad they did.

Using a secularized approach to serving God may or may not be the best approach to winning hearts to The Way. But then again, Jesus did hang with the lepers and party with the sinners.

Skyhook79;608792 wrote:Cop out?? So if you try and follow scripture and apply it to your life your a "cop out"? You make a personal decision on whether to follow Jesus's words. That is thinking for yourself.
If there is a different way to enter Heaven other than thru Jesus please enlighten me.

Well, it seems to me you ought to present a reason as to why a nonbeliever might believe that Jesus is the way the truth and the life when there are competing claims in the marketplace of ideas. For instance you might advance towards a nonbeliever in the following way:

Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The Universe Began to Exist. The Cause of the universe is God. In order for God to be worthy of worship he would have qualities like those of Jesus Christ. The Resurrection of Christ was witnessed by X amount of first hand witnesses. Jesus was either Lord a liar or a lunatic and no one would withstand a crucifixion to preserve a lie and lunatics normally don't demonstrate the kind of moral character that Jesus did according to the Gospels. Therefore, it stands to Reason that Jesus is who he said he was and since he said that he is the way the truth and the life and the only way to get to heaven is to accept as a matter of fact that he died on the cross for all of the sins of mankind and take him as your personal savior.

Now, there are problems with all of the premises within that overarching argument as there are with any attempt to deal with metaphysical questions but this to me is along the lines of how you ought to approach a non-believer. Simply saying; "Jesus is the way and the truth and the life" gives no better reason to accept that particular truth claim than say, "Last night I was visited by Invisible Green Goblins and they say that the only path to eternal life is to accept them as the personal God's over your life." To me, it is quite a house of reason to build up a justified belief in contemporary fundamentalist Christianity from a beginning Cause-God with no definable characteristics other than that it must have some power to an intimate and personal God who is simultaneously the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and who manifested itself on Earth as a man called Jesus Christ several thousand years ago in order to serve as the sacrifice for his own mortal creation's sins and rise again as a zombie so as to live forever and once again return to earth for eternal reign...But, as O-trap and plenty of other very intelligent people have demonstrated, it can be done.

To me, if you're going to hold such particularized beliefs about the nature of the world and life and death such a reasoning process is necessary to do so coherently. For me personally, I guess I'm just not interested in metaphysics anymore as I really can't get passed the first step in the analysis because whether you're a theologian or a naturalist quantum physicist, at this point it always seems to reach a point where it's beyond our understanding and rather than justifying a belief in a God, of which particular version I wouldn't be sure anyways, I prefer to just say that I'm not sure at this point. There may even be a knowledge deficiency that might prevent us from playing the odds to avoid an eternal damnation and even then whether a self-interested faux belief to avoid damnation would qualify as the requisite mental state. But with all those concerns and many others aside, for me, again, at this point, I just tend to just avoid the debate and not make a claim as to whether God does in fact or doesn't exist because hell I don't know.

believer;608950 wrote:I agree, O-Trap.

However, I've had many heated discussions with non-believers who have injected, "and so where in the Bible does your God say that?"

Is that an appropriate time to apply Scripture to someone who doesn't accept Scripture or is it still just an exercise in futility? Or should I - by "faith" - hope that in my doing so (IE: sharing Scripture with the non-believer) that the Holy Spirit will do His "work" in that person...sort of plant the seed?

Oh certainly if the question being asked has to do with what the Bible says. However, if the question is directed toward the authority of God or the Bible, quoting the Bible is fruitless, because it doesn't answer the question, really (at best, circularly). In the mind of a non-believer, it would be no different than me saying I was the ultimate supreme dictator mac daddy of the universe, and if you needed proof, you would just need to ask the ultimate supreme dictator mac daddy of the universe - me.

believer;608950 wrote:I was a scoffer at one time too. But someone had the courage of sharing God's Word (or Work) with me. I'm glad they did.

Same here, brother. Same here. I am continually thankful for the fact that my mentor had the patience to spend YEARS with me, helping reach me on terms I could accept, and who did so with such conviction that it was the first time I got to know someone who REALLY believed that there was POWER in his faith ... that it was the truth.

believer;608950 wrote:Using a secularized approach to serving God may or may not be the best approach to winning hearts to The Way. But then again, Jesus did hang with the lepers and party with the sinners.

Jesus did explain the "Kingdom of Heaven" in secular, contemporary terms to his audience.