Also, I would agree with an above statment, trying to understand how things are not pre-determined but yet God knows what will eventually happen is nearly impossible for our finite thinking brain.

Its like trying to understand how God has always been and always will be.

Its like trying to understand how God is omnipresent (can be anywhere).

I'll also throw this one out there, its like trying to understand how God can be not only at any place (omnipresent) but can also be in any TIME. God can be looking at you as a baby and on your dying bed, he time has no meaning and has no boundaries on him. That's how he knows what is already going to happen, he's already seen it happen. Try to wrap your brain around that.

I'm reposting what I said from the other thread....

It is quite possible to be both religious and scientific. The friction that arises between the two are due to our inability as finite beings to conceptualize the infinite. We visualize him as a 'being' making decisions and micro managing his universe as a man might build and play with a toy....a 'spirit in the sky'.
When you throw that concept out, and quit trying to pin human/animal characteristics to "Him", it becomes easy to accept both spirituality AND science.

If you can visualize god not as a bordered entity but diffuse....as everywhere, permeating everything, at all times and forever. An enormous purpose of will and direction that surrounds us, envelopes us....and everything in the universe. If you can do that then you will see how the religions of the world tie in....the concept of 'oneness with that purpose' that in some form or other(heaven in the Christian tradition).


Religion does not define God....it is a way for our spiritual nature to find him.

ttt

Still struggling with this Ernest?

Here is what I've come to decide. I too was raised Christian and I too have many questions. I too have strayed away from faith. However, I too don't want to spend an afterlife eternally damned.

I have opened myself up to God. When I do pray (which is rare anymore), the only thing I pray for anymore is the Holy Spirit to fill me. I pray that my Shepherd gets me out of the ruts, and back on the path of righteousness. It's frustrating. I want it, I yearn for it...but I still get no answers. I don't see a "light" guiding me back. I don't feel anything. But I want it.....

So, it makes me question it even more. When I say, "here I am...take me! I want you." And I hear crickets....I actually become angry. But I keep trying it.

If there is a God, and it is His will for me to spend eternity with him...I will gladly and benevolently accept that gift. Until then...I can only pray for his guidance and presence in my day to day actions/life. I just hope I don't drop dead before I get a response....because if that happens and I don't get a response, I will be scared shitless as my mind fades away.....

SnotBubbles;439985 wrote:I have opened myself up to God. When I do pray (which is rare anymore), the only thing I pray for anymore is the Holy Spirit to fill me. I pray that my Shepherd gets me out of the ruts, and back on the path of righteousness. It's frustrating. I want it, I yearn for it...but I still get no answers. I don't see a "light" guiding me back. I don't feel anything. But I want it.....

So, it makes me question it even more. When I say, "here I am...take me! I want you." And I hear crickets....I actually become angry. But I keep trying it.

If there is a God, and it is His will for me to spend eternity with him...I will gladly and benevolently accept that gift. Until then...I can only pray for his guidance and presence in my day to day actions/life. I just hope I don't drop dead before I get a response....because if that happens and I don't get a response, I will be scared shitless as my mind fades away.....

I know I'm probably not posting this in the appropriate eloquent manner, Snot, but here goes. And sorry if I seem ridiculous, but there's a reason for it, as you'll see.

Are you working for it? What part of the communion with God are you holding up? Do you want something simply because you exist? What do you think that you have to do, if anything, to "feel" something? Are you looking for indicators? Why should God work on demand?
......................................................

Now, I ask those abrupt questions because I actually think the same thoughts sometimes.
But then I look around at my existense and think to myself that perhaps God IS holding up his bargain:
I woke up today.
I realize that I'm not privy to God's time.
I know that because I don't completely know everything in God's mind, I don't try. I just try to work with what little I do know.
The old cliche "count your many blessings" is rejuvenating.
Sometimes blessings aren't obvious.
Sometimes miracles aren't obvious.
I can't always control what others think say or do, but I can control what I think say or do - even when I think I can't.

I often wonder what I've done to even be deserving of God's notice and why I should just expect things to happen. After all, sometimes I just don't want to put forth the effort.
I believe that this is where our part of the "bargain" lies. It's not easy, it's not routine and it's not always instantly gratifying. In fact, it's extremely rare when taken at face value. The exchange isn't always tangible. It's hard to absorb what is going on when our everyday lives are so related to our senses.
It is also my belief that the love of God is a love that we don't quite understand. We love our parents, significant others, friends, pets, food, art, etc. That's because we can see, feel, smell, hear and taste the obvious. But, the feeling and the loving of God is abstract, for lack of a better word. We as humans are so used to instant gratification, that when we don't immediately see, touch, hear, taste, or smell results, we naturally think we're observing a natural vacuum. Love is abstract enough, but when we sense an absence, it's even harder to try and wrap our minds around it. We've somehow been conditioned to expect reliable and obvious "feelings" concerning relationships to God.
I wonder who started this notion that we should feel awashed with this rapturous love and that that was the only idicator that we're loved by God. I think it's a false notion, even when others will disagree with me.
For example: I love my Mother dearly. But I don't always have that awesome feeling of love coursing through my body and mind just because she's there. It's just there and taken for granted. So, of course it will not be so easy when considering something that isn't easy to see/experience like my mother.

So, to some extent, I don't expect an understanding, feeling, or any sort of event. If it happens, great - if it don't, well tomorrow is another day. I think finding our acceptance level is our job to be constantly looked for, modified and contemplated. Perhaps that is why patience is a virtue? I don't know.

Snot, here's my take on what you've said. I'll use a Cubs analogy, since I know you're a Cubs fan.

First off, I agree 100% with what Center has said. I've made that same prayer you have, but I know that I have not done my part. I've asked God to open my heart, but I am not too sure I've leant him my heart. When I was in college, I had a roommate that was a die hard, Chicago born, Cubs fan. I started liking the Cubs because of his passion. I wasn't a fan, but I rooted for them. I wasn't a true fan because I didn't invest myself into what being a Cubs fan is. If I wanted to feel the love of the Cubs nation, I'd have to invest that love. It was never true. I could try and try to become a Cubs fan, but (as you are a true Cubs fan, you know) it's not just about rooting for that team, and wanting them to win. It's about history. It's about tradition. It's about LIVING the life of a Cubs fan, win/lose/draw. I didn't have that.

Stupid analogy, but onto religion. I've prayed that prayer. But, I know that it won't work, b/c I'm not willing (in my heart) to do what it takes. If I want to feel the Spirit, then I know that I have to invest what I want in return. I need to read the Bible. I need to surround myself with believers. I need to go to Church. I need to honor Christ and be a Christlike example in the way I live. I need to live the life of a believer. I can't expect to go "half-arsed" and expect to reap the same benefits as true followers.

Back to the Cubs, and to tie it together. I can root for the Cubs, but if they win it all, I don't truly reap the benefits. I won't shed a tear, like I know you would, and my old roommate would, and your father would. You would cry like little babies b/c it actually means something to you. Because you've invested time into it. My roommate cried when Bartman screwed the Cubs. I laughed. Because it didn't mean anything.

I'm too stubborn to go after it, and I'm ashamed to say that...

For about the past year I've been getting much further from god. To the point where I hope he doesn't exist because if he does I want nothing to do with him.

Back on topic--

The toughest part of day-to-day life for me is being consistent in what I do. It's difficult to make time for things of faith when I'm racing around from one thing to another in life. Setting aside time for the important--rather than settling for the tyranny of the urgent--is perhaps my biggest struggle.

Re "repenting mass murderer" question: the question reveals a fundamental (but understandable) confusion about the path to the Divine. The basic idea is that we're all sinners, we've all done something wrong. Even though there are huge variations in the degree of our fallen-ness, this doesn't change the main problem: a God who is perfect and holy can't accept someone who is not unless there is atonement for that wrongdoing. That is, whether you lied once, or murdered a million, you're still not perfect--and that's the only question--perfect, or not perfect? If "not perfect," then you need to atone for that wrongdoing. It's not a question of doing enough good things to outweigh the bad--there isn't some sort of scale out there to determine who gets in. Is that any clearer?

HitsRus;223084 wrote:I'm reposting what I said from the other thread....

It is quite possible to be both religious and scientific. The friction that arises between the two are due to our inability as finite beings to conceptualize the infinite. We visualize him as a 'being' making decisions and micro managing his universe as a man might build and play with a toy....a 'spirit in the sky'.
When you throw that concept out, and quit trying to pin human/animal characteristics to "Him", it becomes easy to accept both spirituality AND science.

If you can visualize god not as a bordered entity but diffuse....as everywhere, permeating everything, at all times and forever. An enormous purpose of will and direction that surrounds us, envelopes us....and everything in the universe. If you can do that then you will see how the religions of the world tie in....the concept of 'oneness with that purpose' that in some form or other(heaven in the Christian tradition).


Religion does not define God....it is a way for our spiritual nature to find him.

I think I agree with this. I don't understand the idea that smart people can't be religious, etc. There are plenty of smart, well-educated, upper-class, scientific people who are ardent believers.

I generally respect the beliefs of most people, but what I don't understand are people who claim to be "spiritual", rather than religious. In my experience, this tends to mean something like "I like the good feelings I get from religion, and I like the sense of purpose that it gives me, but I don't really like all the requirements like avoiding lust, avoiding gluttony, being part of a community, being held accountable for my actions, feeling uncomfortable about disagreeing with people, and so on. I'd rather just cherry-pick the good things and leave out the tough stuff."

It seems like religion is an all-or-nothing deal. If you're not going to be all-in, then don't walk the fence--much better to enjoy whatever you want than to half-ass it.

fan_from_texas;440203 wrote:Back on topic--

Re "repenting mass murderer" question: the question reveals a fundamental (but understandable) confusion about the path to the Divine. The basic idea is that we're all sinners, we've all done something wrong. Even though there are huge variations in the degree of our fallen-ness, this doesn't change the main problem: a God who is perfect and holy can't accept someone who is not unless there is atonement for that wrongdoing. That is, whether you lied once, or murdered a million, you're still not perfect--and that's the only question--perfect, or not perfect? If "not perfect," then you need to atone for that wrongdoing. It's not a question of doing enough good things to outweigh the bad--there isn't some sort of scale out there to determine who gets in. Is that any clearer?

I couldn't have put it any better myself FFT.

A couple things to remember...

1. In God's eyes all sins are "equal". Murder isn't any worse than lying. Severity of sin is a man made idea. Even looking at the consequences for sin in the Bible. The man made Jewish laws had varying degrees, but the spiritual consequences from God has never had varying degrees of severity.

2. Like you said, there is not a set of "balances" or "scales" in heaven that puts all the good things you did on one side and all the bad on the other. The only question is perfect or not perfect, and if the answer is not perfect, then you had better have something (Jesus' sacrafice) to atone (or make amends) for your imperfection.

ernest_t_bass;126923 wrote:Before I start this thread, I ask that those of you who are not believers, and couldn't care less about this topic please:
-Refrain from turning this into a religious debate.
-Refrain from insulting the beliefs mentioned here.
-Refrain from insulting huddlers for their beliefs.
-Refrain from "thread-shitting."
-If you choose to do any of the following, it just goes to show your childishness.

Now that I have said that, I know that people will still do the above, but I had to mention it anyway.

To fellow believers, Christians, whatever. In your day-to-day (spiritual) life, what is the toughest part of living that life? What do you find that challenges your own personal beliefs most? What brings you the most "trouble" in your spiritual life?

For me, personally, it is "what if I'm wrong?" There are so many different "religions" out there, and each one preaches that they are the right one. Which one is right? What if I'm wrong?

I don't consider myself a religious person. I was raised non-denominational, but I'd consider myself a baptist.

What troubles you the most?

What troubles me the most? Women! It's a love/hate thing. As far as knowing which religion is right, that comes into focus pretty easily if you do your homework. There is only 1 religion that has history to back up what its founder said.

LoganAlumni99;440401 wrote:What troubles me the most? Women! It's a love/hate thing. As far as knowing which religion is right, that comes into focus pretty easily if you do your homework. There is only 1 religion that has history to back up what its founder said.

Scientology? Fucking Tom Cruise....

When I was a christian I struggled with reconciling the suffering of the world with the God I learned about. Eventually I lost my faith while serving as a missionary. I've often heard that when you do missionary work you either grow closer to God or you can lose faith entirely...the latter happened for me.

Re; "spiritual" as opposed to "religious."

I don't fall into this camp as I would consider myself neither, but what I think people mean when they say they're "spiritual" is perhaps that they believe in God, a Creator of the Universe, and perhaps even that this thing may care about humans on Earth....but that this God is nothing like as depicted by the World Religions; a philosopher's God, as I've heard it called. Hence, if you believed in God in this manner, I'm not so sure you'd feel morally obligated to refrain from such behaviors that tend to be deemed sinful. I imagine these folks to see God to be more akin to "the force" in Star Wars. JMHO.

BoatShoes;440440 wrote:When I was a christian I struggled with reconciling the suffering of the world with the God I learned about. Eventually I lost my faith while serving as a missionary. I've often heard that when you do missionary work you either grow closer to God or you can lose faith entirely...the latter happened for me.

Re; "spiritual" as opposed to "religious."

I don't fall into this camp as I would consider myself neither, but what I think people mean when they say they're "spiritual" is perhaps that they believe in God, a Creator of the Universe, and perhaps even that this thing may care about humans on Earth....but that this God is nothing like as depicted by the World Religions; a philosopher's God, as I've heard it called. Hence, if you believed in God in this manner, I'm not so sure you'd feel morally obligated to refrain from such behaviors that tend to be deemed sinful. I imagine these folks to see God to be more akin to "the force" in Star Wars. JMHO.

The one thing I will say, the Bible pretty well answers the question of a "loving God" and a decaying/suffering world. If you were a missionary I believe you know the reason. The suffering of the world is due to the sin of man (according to the Bible).

jmog;440458 wrote:The one thing I will say, the Bible pretty well answers the question of a "loving God" and a decaying/suffering world. If you were a missionary I believe you know the reason. The suffering of the world is due to the sin of man (according to the Bible).

Well, I suppose, even after seeking philosophical justifications for my christian beliefs, upon being up close and personal to what seemed to me to be incomprehensible suffering of children, I became like Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov; and that answer didn't quite seem satisfying anymore and neither did any fideistic support; an emotional begrudging despair overcame any reason. It's not God that I don't accept...but I must respectfully return him my ticket.

BoatShoes;440490 wrote:Well, I suppose, even after seeking philosophical justifications for my christian beliefs, upon being up close and personal to what seemed to me to be incomprehensible suffering of children, I became like Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov; and that answer didn't quite seem satisfying anymore and neither did any fideistic support; an emotional begrudging despair overcame any reason. It's not God that I don't accept...but I must respectfully return him my ticket.

There are, of course, very good philosophical justifications for Christianity, including several good ones advanced recently (I'm thinking Richard Swinburne, Keith Yandell, Alvin Plantinga). If you want a serious defense of the faith, I'd recommend several of Swinburne's books. They're academic (i.e. not written for the common guy on the street), but if you want something legitimate and in-depth, it's a good route to go.

fan_from_texas;440520 wrote:There are, of course, very good philosophical justifications for Christianity, including several good ones advanced recently (I'm thinking Richard Swinburne, Keith Yandell, Alvin Plantinga). If you want a serious defense of the faith, I'd recommend several of Swinburne's books. They're academic (i.e. not written for the common guy on the street), but if you want something legitimate and in-depth, it's a good route to go.

Thank you for the suggestions, I appreciate it. I am familiar with them and their arguments are quite interesting (particularly Swinburne's Principles of Credulity and Testimony but I think David Hume trumps him, JMHO). Prior to my current career I thought I was going to be a philosophy professor and wrote my master's thesis defending a Divine Command Theory of ethics as an answer to the logical problem of evil...I thought I would eventually turn it into my Ph.D but that changed and I never went through with it and thought I'd take arguing to the real world. I've heard all the theodicies, Plantinga's Free Will defense, Etc. Not looking to get into a debate about the cogency of these arguments. Thought I'd just say what I struggled with while an active Christian. But again, thank you for offering up suggestions as it is undoubtedly true that those and many others are great thinkers and offer powerful defenses for theism and the like. I actually met Prof. Yandell before; a very good man it seemed.

At the end of the day we could do all the syllogistic reasoning we can muster but I think Hume might have been right in that at the very end, our passions turn us to whatever it is we believe and I suppose, whatever the result, it appears to be true in my case. I'm not sure. I can remember evangelizing to atheists with arguments from those men and in my mind, it seemed like subjective experiences were far better at converting than modal logic on a napkin.Though I feel like the ontological argument might prove God's existence a priori, when I leave my philosophical inquiry, I must admit the neurological brain state of "Belief" that attaches to my physical body some how just isn't there. But, that's just me. I often describe it like how I felt about the Buckeyes playing USC 3 years back...I wanted the Bucks to win and hoped they'd win...but really, I just didn't believe they would.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, Ernest.

^^^Boatshoes, You are one step away from being a Christian apologist! lol The cliche' "there's a fine line between love and hate" rings so true.

Back to topic, as my handle implies I am indeed a "believer" but that doesn't mean I do not struggle with spiritual issues on a daily basis.

I suppose the Scripture that best describes my daily view on life is 1 John 2:15-17: Don't love the world's ways. Don't love the world's goods. Love of the world squeezes out love for the Father. Practically everything that goes on in the world—wanting your own way, wanting everything for yourself, wanting to appear important—has nothing to do with the Father. It just isolates you from him. The world and all its wanting, wanting, wanting is on the way out—but whoever does what God wants is set for eternity. - The Message

Do I live up to this daily? Nope. I get wrapped up very easily on acquiring things and coveting what others have rather than coming to the stark but true understanding that "worldly things" are fleeting, temporary and easily turn to dust. But eternity, my friend, lasts forever.

SnotBubbles;440427 wrote:Scientology? Fucking Tom Cruise....

I'm not offended at you making fun of my post, but could you leave my Cubies out of it?

Been struggling with another issue... How many of you (believers) feel it's utterly important to attend church? I haven't been in about 2-3 months.

ernest_t_bass;522616 wrote:Been struggling with another issue... How many of you (believers) feel it's utterly important to attend church? I haven't been in about 2-3 months.

1. It has to be the "right" or good church. If you are going to a church that doesn't truly preach the Bible and only preaches the "God loves you and would bless you if you gave more money" type messages, you might as well not go.
2. I feel it is important for a Christian to receive good teaching on a regular basis. The Bible explains it like spiritual food. If you don't eat regular food you become weak and eventually die. If you don't get any spiritual "food" (teaching) then your faith/integrity/actions will slowly become weak and die.

jmog;522690 wrote:1. It has to be the "right" or good church. If you are going to a church that doesn't truly preach the Bible and only preaches the "God loves you and would bless you if you gave more money" type messages, you might as well not go.
2. I feel it is important for a Christian to receive good teaching on a regular basis. The Bible explains it like spiritual food. If you don't eat regular food you become weak and eventually die. If you don't get any spiritual "food" (teaching) then your faith/integrity/actions will slowly become weak and die.

I agree. I haven't been to church in quite a while I'm ashamed to say. I can tell I haven't because my anger is up, I'm short with people, I see nothing but the negatives in people, I use profanity more, etc., etc.

However, I do have a question for you. Why is it you are not in church right now?

believer;522718 wrote:Why is it you are not in church right now?

Laziness, above all.

There are some other issues with the pastor/wife's family that has also caused my wife some resentment towards our church. My mother-in-law is attending another church b/c our pastor got sick for a while. She liked the new church, so she stayed. Pastor got healthy, she didn't return back to old church. Pastor was un-Christ-like towards here (rude, cold-shouldered), so that has turned my wife off. We need to either return to that church, or find another one.

believer;522718 wrote:I agree. I haven't been to church in quite a while I'm ashamed to say. I can tell I haven't because my anger is up, I'm short with people, I see nothing but the negatives in people, I use profanity more, etc., etc.

However, I do have a question for you. Why is it you are not in church right now?

Because I'm in Italy for work and there is a 6 hr time difference...I did go to a Catholic church today (I'm not Catholic, but in Italy its about the only churches).

I am going to my "my" church for 3 or 4 weeks while over here.

I don't believe in religion. I'm not sure about God, but I definitely don't believe in the biblical version. That being said, I was raised Methodist and I often go through the "What if I am wrong" debate with myself. I still think the scientific evidence greatly out weights the religious aspects, though, and the other point which I can't get over is that if there is a God, I am pretty sure that the "well I will believe so that I don't go to hell" system isn't the way he intended it to work, anyway. I hope I'm right, though. It'll be getting a little warm for me for a while if I am wrong.