As Christians, we must remember to talk with respect, even if provoked. We shouldn't return comments with a sting of arrogance, conceit or sarcasm, otherwise we may lose credibility. If we are to atract and spread His gospel, it tends to work better if delivered respectfully...especially when it faces opposition. Humility, it helps keep the tensions down.

O-Trap wrote:Too many of my questions were answered with "because God made it that way" or "because we have faith" or "his thoughts are higher than our thoughts."

Now, I'm not opposed to any one of these being true, but when it's ALL you hear, and no rational possibility can even be posed, it gets tiring and disenfranchising very quickly.

It's understandable why one could get "frustrated"

O-Trap wrote:It hit me one day, though, that I'd never really given Christianity its best shot ... that is to say, I'd never heard the best it had to offer.

It was over a long period of time. It's not a story where I had some grand emotional experience and "came to a belief" in God. It was over time.

While some may have that "Mountain Top" experience, I believe most come by it the way you did. Being a Catholic/Christian, I'm always trying to keep Christ in focus. "Seek and you will find" It's more than just an hour a week in church. Each day we should try to set aside some time to be quiet and speak to Him and/or listen for Him. If persistent, and with an open heart, one will get better at understanding. With this fast paced world, though I try, I don't always succeed. Yet I know my Savior lives and is always waiting for me...even with my faults.

O-Trap wrote: Questioning is never a bad thing. Those Christians who treat questioning as a bad thing do not have enough faith in their beliefs, because they are afraid that their beliefs cannot satisfy the questions asked. A strong faith can withstand probing questions and is made stronger by them.

Good points. That supports the reason Christians should always be "seeking" God. Read scripture. Meditate on it. Pray for understanding. And be patient. There have been times when just out of the blue I happened to understand a scripture passage. I mean it was years that I wasn't quite sure what it meant. Persistence and patience.

I still want to know how the Bible's message is "superior" to others, as 74leps claimed.

And, P.S., i am sick of the comment that, whenever someone brings up a point made by scientists, historians, etc., disputing the historical accuracy of the bible, that they are immediately labeled as "biased" and not worthy of consideration.

Not everyone in academis are atheists.

Looks like this is now a debate thread. Seems inevitable with religion and politics.

cbus4life, or anyone else interested:

Someone wanting to confirm/be able to defend Christianity should have a book of apologetics on hand: A good basic book to have would be The Popular Encyclopedia of Apologetics, (Surveying the Evidence for the Truth of Christianity) available at Berean Book stores. A wealth of information about what the Bible teaches, critical issues, scientific and historical controversies, ethical matters, Christian response to major world religions and cults, major worldviews and secular philosophies.

Why Christianity is different from all other world religions and non-Christian sects -

Excerpt:

"World religions and non-Christian sects focus on how individuals can EARN God's love by trying to be good enough, moral enough, or sacrificial enough.

Jesus' way of salvation is God-centered, and the way of salvation in world religions and non-Christian sects is man-centered. Jesus' way of salvation is about what God has done to save humanity. World religions and non-Christian sects' way of salvation is about what humanity can do to save itself."

One could also find out in the above book that Buddha, for example, made no claim to himself being divinity, and most likely would be offended by someone claiming he was. Buddhism is more a philosophy than a religion. Buddha believed in a 'lifeforce' or energy, but not a Creator God.

As to a previous post about the Jews and the Old Testament - Jesus was a Jew, He and his disciples all believed the Old Testament was true, including the Creation account and the Great Flood.

There's an online link to some basics in the link below concerning the historical accuracy of the Bible, 'outside' references to Christ and Christians from the 1st century AD, etc., skim down through the index to find it. (scroll down to 1997)

http://www.rae.org/index.html

One might believe I'm biased or arrogant in thinking Christianity is 'superior'. But I can back that up with a wealth of information sources such as listed above (and many more from the world of science). Whether one agrees with me or not is up to them. But this thread was meant for Christian huddlers, so I believe I am entirely in-line. I certainly wasn't looking for a fight, but am prepared to defend, as all Christians should be. Again, as the apostle Paul stated, Christianity is a 'reasoned' faith, not some blind faith. There's a wealth of evidence if one will only take the time to look into it seriously. That means not just going to church, but doing some research. Know what you believe, why you believe it and be able to defend it.

74Leps wrote: cbus4life, or anyone else interested:

Someone wanting to confirm/be able to defend Christianity should have a book of apologetics on hand: A good basic book to have would be The Popular Encyclopedia of Apologetics, (Surveying the Evidence for the Truth of Christianity) available at Berean Book stores. A wealth of information about what the Bible teaches, critical issues, scientific and historical controversies, ethical matters, Christian response to major world religions and cults, major worldviews and secular philosophies.

Why Christianity is different from all other world religions and non-Christian sects -

Excerpt:

"World religions and non-Christian sects focus on how individuals can EARN God's love by trying to be good enough, moral enough, or sacrificial enough.

Jesus' way of salvation is God-centered, and the way of salvation in world religions and non-Christian sects is man-centered. Jesus' way of salvation is about what God has done to save humanity. World religions and non-Christian sects' way of salvation is about what humanity can do to save itself."

One could also find out in the above book that Buddha, for example, made no claim to himself being divinity, and most likely would be offended by someone claiming he was. Buddhism is more a philosophy than a religion. Buddha believed in a 'lifeforce' or energy, but not a Creator God.

As to a previous post about the Jews and the Old Testament - Jesus was a Jew, He and his disciples all believed the Old Testament was true, including the Creation account and the Great Flood.

There's an online link to some basics in the link below concerning the historical accuracy of the Bible, 'outside' references to Christ and Christians from the 1st century AD, etc., skim down through the index to find it. (scroll down to 1997)

http://www.rae.org/index.html

One might believe I'm biased or arrogant in thinking Christianity is 'superior'. But I can back that up with a wealth of information sources such as listed above (and many more from the world of science). Whether one agrees with me or not is up to them. But this thread was meant for Christian huddlers, so I believe I am entirely in-line. I certainly wasn't looking for a fight, but am prepared to defend, as all Christians should be. Again, as the apostle Paul stated, Christianity is a 'reasoned' faith, not some blind faith. There's a wealth of evidence if one will only take the time to look into it seriously. That means not just going to church, but doing some research. Know what you believe, why you believe it and be able to defend it.

While I admire your zeal, I find an inherent problem with using "apologetics." Most would use apologetics as a way to defend what they already believe. However, if a person has come to a "reasoned faith" through the use of reason, they already have a legitimate defense for their belief. Too many use "apologetics" books in such a way that they can just believe first, and then they can look for a reason why they should believe.

I'd say if they've not heard such reason before their belief, they should not yet believe. I know how scary that sounds to say, but I think it's true.

It seems that so many Christians today have a proper sense of urgency about the eternal state of others (what that actually looks like is a separate discussion), but they go about it in the wrong way, I think. I think they approach it from a "hurry-up-and-get-em-'saved'" mentality. What I think this produces is what Jesus' parable of the sower refers to as the seeds which sprout quickly, but have no root system, and so they die quickly as well.

I don't think this produces a strong faith, and I find that to be a problem. Does it take LONGER to nurture a strong faith? Yes, and so maybe you can't get as many people to pray the prayer in that same amount of time, but those who you CAN disciple and nurture will be much stronger in their faith.

Remember, we do not act as a peddler with the gospel ... that is to say we do not treat it like we would if we were a salesperson trying to sell a product.

A salesperson (I'll speak from my own experience, as most all my professional career has been in sales and/or marketing) tries to sell something to as many people as possible, regardless of whether or not they'll ever use it. Even a good salesperson will sell something to someone who WANTS it, even if they may not ever USE it. Even others will convince them that they NEED it, but if the salesperson doesn't take the time to show the customer WHY they need it and HOW to use it, then what good is the product to the customer? Still others who might be less than savory and use bait-and-switch tactics ... something I've unfortunately also seen Christians do.

Ultimately, when we consider a life dedicated to serving God, we are told to COUNT THE COST. We are told to evaluate what that means to truly do so. Why, then, would we ever try to tell others they needed to be saved and try to persuade them to make a decision then and there? They still need to know the 'why', the 'how', and the 'then what'.

So, ultimately, while I think apologetics is well-intentioned, I think it should be unnecessary. If we have built our faith on a firm, steady foundation ... one that is reasonable ... then we already have our defense. We need only to show it to others.

Sorry about the soapbox. However, that's always been a nerve of mine.

Also, regarding the belief in the Old Testament by Jews during the Second Temple period in Coele-Syria ... you are absolutely right that they would have believed every "yud" and "vav" of the Old Testament. However, probably not in the terms that many do today. The Jews as a people were not a people that communicated in the same way a news reporter would (ie "just the facts, ma'am"). They were much more pictorial and creative with their communication. Honestly, the imagery used in Hebrew writing puts even some of the most creative English writers to shame.

A quick study through the Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha will show that, as well as many other extra-canonical writings.

In fact, I would argue that the understanding that the Jews had about what afterlife looks like has largely to do with the fact that they also believed very strongly in these works as well (the Additions to Daniel, Additions to Esther, Tobit, the Enochs, the Maccabbees, the Esdras, Baruch, Judith, Susanna, the Wisdom of Solomon, etc.).

I wrote my university honors paper on the subject of the shaping of Jewish afterlife theology during the Intertestamental Period (roughly 604 BCE to 3 CE), and specifically the shaping within the locale of Coele-Syria (modern-day Palestine/Israel area), as there were areas like Elephantine and the like which seemed to be shaped a tad differently.

If you're interested in reading it, PM me, and I'll give you the link. It's a tad heady (as most such papers are), but I got it published in the Journals of the Evangelical Theological Society back several years ago, so it can't have been unreadable.

Let me know.

O-Trap wrote:If we have built our faith on a firm, steady foundation ... one that is reasonable ... then we already have our defense. We need only to show it to others.

I tend to like this approach and, IMO, may work best. Generally, people don't like being hit over the head with a Bible, having their faults pointed out or told you have to do this and this and this etc, etc. "Practice what you believe and you will attract people. "Hmmm, that guy always seems to be happy, even through bad times. He always willing to help. What's his secret? How's he do it?"

Over the years I have had people ask me why my family stayed generally happy and got along so well. I'd tell them it had to do with our faith in God, and they'd say "That can't be it" and then want to change the subject.

I have also seen that all the discussion in the world would not change the mind of an non-believer. Then one day a friend of mine was observing a group of Christians working together on a project. He could FEEL the good spirit around everyone, and it changed him when nothing else would.

O-Trap - I do a lot of reading on the internet, a valuable source of information (if the government doesn't take that away) for research. I read a lot about the debates between science and religion (really about religion vs religion, but that's for another time).

Apologetics are a nice source to have handy for reference, because of the variety of subjects that come up. Christians are under attack from every angle.

People have different levels of faith, and some, as Paul would say, the faith of a baby, and are easily swayed. They can't stand more than milk, so never progress.

"A quick study through the Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha will show that, as well as many other extra-canonical writings."

Yet another subject for another time. There's good reason why they were 'extra-canonical'

74Leps wrote: O-Trap - I do a lot of reading on the internet, a valuable source of information (if the government doesn't take that away) for research. I read a lot about the debates between science and religion (really about religion vs religion, but that's for another time).

Rest assured, I've been heavily involved in that argument for many years, and have participated on both sides.

Inasmuch as you do read quite a bit online, maybe the thesis wouldn't be too long for you (most people's attention span gets decidedly shorter on the web ).

http://www.secondtemplesemiticafterlifetheology.info/

Enjoy.

74Leps wrote: Apologetics are a nice source to have handy for reference, because of the variety of subjects that come up. Christians are under attack from every angle.

Rest assured that I'm aware of this. I suppose I don't mind apologetics in and of themselves ... more how they are used. I come across far too many people clinging to such things as a means of legitimizing what they already profess.

I'd suggest that those things found in "apologetics" texts are the horse, and our belief is the cart. Too often, I see the cart coming before the horse.

74Leps wrote: People have different levels of faith, and some, as Paul would say, the faith of a baby, and are easily swayed. They can't stand more than milk, so never progress.

I believe you're referring to the Hebrews 5 passage (one of my favorites). Paul most likely didn't write Hebrews.

The point of that passage, however, was that those who are infantile in their faith out to pursue a "solid foods" faith. The Hebrew church (to which the book is written, of course) had been displaying a lack of that (see vv. 11-14). The writer was using this passage to CHASTISE his audience, as well he should have been.

74Leps wrote: Yet another subject for another time. There's good reason why they were 'extra-canonical'

Oh, of course. I was merely making the point that Hebrews neither wrote nor read the same way we do. Different language, culture, time, and even hemisphere create enough obstacles for us to tackle, such that we ought to approach interpreting Scripture with humility, shedding as much of our cultural predispositions as possible.

A great book on this, which I have and which you are permitted to borrow if you live near Akron, is called "Grasping God's Word." It is by a man named Duvall, I think (the book us upstairs, and I don't feel like going to double-check). Excellent read on the barriers we face in interpretation.

The extra-canonical books DO allot us the ability to study the textual nuances of Semitic writings from that time and area, and while we likely agree that they are not inspired, they DO present a better peep-hole view for us to better grasp the cultural context in which the Scriptures ought to be understood.

Remember, though the Bible is as applicable to us as anyone, its initial audience and writers were not 20th-century, Western-thinking, English-speaking, individualistic, nationally-free, independent Americans. They were first-century, Eastern-thinking, Aramaic- or Greek-speaking, community-minded, captive, oppressed Arabs.

Think about the Arabs of TODAY, and how many obstacles we face in understanding their culture. Now, add the timeline difference, the lack of globalization, and the captivity which existed then.

Not all Americans fail to grasp this, but enough do to make it concerning. We need to handle God's Word reverently ... coming to it fully ready to admit that we definitely won't understand everything in it. Too many talking heads on television or radio or even in books don't seem to have the humility to admit this around those who would listen to them, and I think this is hurting the church.

God's Word is powerful and dumbfounding at times. Handle with care.

have enjoyed this thread as much as any on 'either" huddle. thanks for all the contributors and to ernest for starting it. Tho not catholic, i find myself aligning quite closely to many of captain cavalier's thoughts and expressions, but it's apparent nearly all the "christian" posts here have great insight and that for all of us our time here on earth is a brief journey in eternity that can be at times frustrating and trying, but alway joyful because of the knowledge we have of salvation. It's sad to see so much of the darkness around us, both here and in our everyday lives.

. . . God's Word is powerful and dumbfounding at times. Handle with care.
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Have bookmarked your page; will read sometime when my eyes are fresh and thanks for sharing.

Ephesians 6:12

Question...
Are there "what-ifs" with God? What do you think? Here is why I ask. God is supposed to know the beginning, middle, end. There is the age old free will vs. pre-destination debate, and this may fall into that.

Are there "what-ifs?" Is there such a thing as "the power of prayer?" If prayer actually "works" then the end was not pre-determined. Does God say, "If you pray, the outcome will change." Option A, option B. That doesn't sound right. If everything is pre-determined, then prayer is to make us feel better, right? "I pray that my father won't die." If he doesn't die right away, then "prayer worked." If he passes in the middle of the night, then "prayer didn't work" or "God chose not to answer."

I believe that it is pre-determined. I think that prayer is good b/c it allows us to "speak" with God, but I'm not too sure if I believe that prayer actually "does" anything, b/c everything is predetermined.

God is all knowing and therefore knows your eventual outcome. He also knows your effort in doing His will. I don't believe that just because He knew your fate that He decided your fate. God knew Judas would betray Him and he knew Peter would deny Him, yet both also had the opportunity to repent. Peter repented, Judas did not. God knew what was going to happen yet both made their own decisions. I believe that if Judas repented, God would've granted forgiveness.

On God answering prayers, I like what some friends of mine had told me:
1) Yes
2) Not yet
3) I have something else in mind.

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
Isaiah 55:8

This might seem minor compared to more serious sufferings but it may help to get a my point across. When I was younger my girlfriend broke up with me. I prayed for us to get back together. It didn't happen. Now I'm happily married with children and when I look back at how the relationship was, I believe that if I had gotten married back then it would've ended in a divorce. I actually lived Garth Brooks' song "Unanswered Prayers"

I know it's hard to understand sometimes. When you offer prayers and do what you believe God wants but you don't get the answer you were expecting. Yet others who seem to neglect God all together, receive the "bounty".

Yes, I've heard all that before. But what I don't get. Throw out that prayer you made. Would your outcome not be the same? I'm not saying that God didn't hear your prayer, but would it not be the same.

"God, please let us get back together."
1) OK, Yes - Because it was in His plan
2) No - Because it was not in His plan

Is there a "what if?" Does God know the end? If so, then prayer "requests" are just talking, and just saying "hey, I'm here."

Some "free will" we have if God is all knowing and therefore knows your eventual outcomes. Can't have it both ways, either you are allowed to make your own choices or not. If he knows what choice you are going to take, what choice do you really have?

ernest_t_bass wrote: Question...
Are there "what-ifs" with God? What do you think? Here is why I ask. God is supposed to know the beginning, middle, end. There is the age old free will vs. pre-destination debate, and this may fall into that.

Are there "what-ifs?" Is there such a thing as "the power of prayer?" If prayer actually "works" then the end was not pre-determined. Does God say, "If you pray, the outcome will change." Option A, option B. That doesn't sound right. If everything is pre-determined, then prayer is to make us feel better, right? "I pray that my father won't die." If he doesn't die right away, then "prayer worked." If he passes in the middle of the night, then "prayer didn't work" or "God chose not to answer."

I believe that it is pre-determined. I think that prayer is good b/c it allows us to "speak" with God, but I'm not too sure if I believe that prayer actually "does" anything, b/c everything is predetermined.

You just answered your own question...Prayer is just a way to feel good about something and help calm your nerves. It has no bearing on what the outcome of a thing will be. Just like people who say god has a plan and knows everything. Some guy who is dead knows what is going to happen in the future? lol give me a break no one knows what is going to happen in life because it is unwritten.

If someone has cancer, and you get a group of people to prayer for his recovery and he survives, it has nothing to do with the prayer. It's the doctors and chemo that saved his life. Prayer is a scham just as is god's plan and all that bullshit

bigmanbt wrote: Some "free will" we have if God is all knowing and therefore knows your eventual outcomes. Can't have it both ways, either you are allowed to make your own choices or not. If he knows what choice you are going to take, what choice do you really have?

forgive me bigmanbt as I have already posted this on the other thread, but directly deals with causality and free will.

http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j11/goswami.asp?page=2

It would seem the 'godless' view would be one of predetermination as causality would be nothing more than interaction of elementary particles which can only result in a predictable outcome based on scientific laws. Consciousness and spirituality transcend physical matter...and hence 'downward causality'..free will is a property of spiritualism which effects our physical universe.

DeyDurkie5 wrote:You just answered your own question...Prayer is just a way to feel good about something and help calm your nerves. It has no bearing on what the outcome of a thing will be. Just like people who say god has a plan and knows everything. Some guy who is dead knows what is going to happen in the future? lol give me a break no one knows what is going to happen in life because it is unwritten.

If someone has cancer, and you get a group of people to prayer for his recovery and he survives, it has nothing to do with the prayer. It's the doctors and chemo that saved his life. Prayer is a scham just as is god's plan and all that bullshit

I do appreciate your input, and you can scorn me for saying this, but please read my first post (#1). I ask that this thread not be a debate but for other believers to share their thoughts. I understand wholeheartedly that there are many people in this world that do not believe in God, and I respect that fully. I just ask, politely, that this thread not be a place for that particular discussion, if you would be so kind.

I believe that when people join together to "pray", something really can happen. It's like minds joining together and an insight into the "after-life". Just sayin'!

BRF wrote: I believe that when people join together to "pray", something really can happen. It's like minds joining together and an insight into the "after-life". Just sayin'!

OK, so are you saying that things aren't pre-determined and God does not know the ending? Or are you saying that God changes his mind, based on whether or not people pray?

Yes

Not to put words in BRF's mouth, but of course he's saying that things are not predetermined as he believes that outcomes can be changed by praying. Of course God knows all possible outcomes. The problem comprehending that, is that you are assigning finite characteristics to the infinite.

BRF wrote: Yes

ernest_t_bass wrote:

DeyDurkie5 wrote:You just answered your own question...Prayer is just a way to feel good about something and help calm your nerves. It has no bearing on what the outcome of a thing will be. Just like people who say god has a plan and knows everything. Some guy who is dead knows what is going to happen in the future? lol give me a break no one knows what is going to happen in life because it is unwritten.

If someone has cancer, and you get a group of people to prayer for his recovery and he survives, it has nothing to do with the prayer. It's the doctors and chemo that saved his life. Prayer is a scham just as is god's plan and all that bullshit

I do appreciate your input, and you can scorn me for saying this, but please read my first post (#1). I ask that this thread not be a debate but for other believers to share their thoughts. I understand wholeheartedly that there are many people in this world that do not believe in God, and I respect that fully. I just ask, politely, that this thread not be a place for that particular discussion, if you would be so kind.

I'm not trying to turn it into a debate, if you are questioning why something is happening then shouldn't that be a indication that maybe it's flawed? I mean I pretty much responded to your post about why you are having second thoughts about the power of prayer. I used to believe in god and all that, and was raised christian, but I guess I just came to realize that things like prayer, and the power of god really just doesn't make any concrete sense.
All I was saying, was that if you are having these thoughts that prayer doesn't work and it's causing you to question it, then maybe you are beginning to realize certain things pertaining to your religion/beliefs. I'm not trying to turn this into a debate, was just merely giving a second opinion to the quoted post.

I say that not everything is pre-determined, but God does know everything in that he knows what YOU will choose and what you will do ahead of time.

Him knowing what will happen doesn't mean he pre-determined that it would happen.