jmog wrote: Ah, the "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Its a very viable theory, still completely kills evolution, just doesn't kill the "billions" of years we hear from geologists.

It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame.

You're assuming 10,000 years is the gap.

If you guys have an hour and half or so to watch a video, I think it will explain how science and the Bible are really in sequence with eachother when it comes to the big bang and the universe being around for 15 billion years. The scientist is Gerald Schroeder and he's an MIT trained scientist who's worked with the best in the world. He's also written books explaining this, just search his name on Amazon.com.

The video is "The Science of God" by Dr. Gerald Schroeder if you wanna search for it and watch more of him. I can also link it to ya here:

Video Link

I found this video about 2 weeks ago and I now feel I have a greater understanding in how everything was started and it's starting to make more sense.

FatHobbit wrote:

jmog wrote: Ah, the "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Its a very viable theory, still completely kills evolution, just doesn't kill the "billions" of years we hear from geologists.

It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame.

You're assuming 10,000 years is the gap.

No I'm not at all, great Genesis 1, and reread what I said.

The "gap theory" talks about a gap between the creation of the universe and the creation of life, aka between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 (basically, or whatever verse the first life is made, I don't have my Bible with me at the moment).

jmog wrote:

FatHobbit wrote:

jmog wrote: Ah, the "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Its a very viable theory, still completely kills evolution, just doesn't kill the "billions" of years we hear from geologists.

It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame.

You're assuming 10,000 years is the gap.

No I'm not at all, great Genesis 1, and reread what I said.

The "gap theory" talks about a gap between the creation of the universe and the creation of life, aka between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 (basically, or whatever verse the first life is made, I don't have my Bible with me at the moment).

The bible says the gap was 10,000 years?

FatHobbit wrote:

The bible says the gap was 10,000 years?

The Bible doesn't acknowledge there is a gap at all, that's a "theory" made by humans.

The Bible timeline from creation of life until now is less than 10,000 years.

To answer your next question "where does it say that" I point to the boring to read geneologies in the Bible. They were there for 1 main reason (to show the geneology of Jesus Christ) and a minor reason, to give time frames for all of the OT.

jmog wrote:

ernest_t_bass wrote: My only geological (self) explanation, is that "in the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth." Between that time and the time God created man in His own image, I can honestly see there being millions/billions/trillions of year. If God is an everlasting deity, then that is but a blink of an eye to him.

Ah, the "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Its a very viable theory, still completely kills evolution, just doesn't kill the "billions" of years we hear from geologists.

It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame.

jmog wrote:

FatHobbit wrote:

The bible says the gap was 10,000 years?

The Bible doesn't acknowledge there is a gap at all, that's a "theory" made by humans.

The Bible timeline from creation of life until now is less than 10,000 years.

To answer your next question "where does it say that" I point to the boring to read geneologies in the Bible. They were there for 1 main reason (to show the geneology of Jesus Christ) and a minor reason, to give time frames for all of the OT.

Ernest said "Between that time and the time God created man in His own image, I can honestly see there being millions/billions/trillions of year. If God is an everlasting deity, then that is but a blink of an eye to him." As the bible says that god created everything in 6 days, I am assumining that means a day is not 24 hours to god. (That assumption might be the key to my not understanding where you get 10,000 years from.)

You said "It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame." If we are assuming a day is not 24 hours to god, I'm not quite sure where the 10,000 years comes from.

And if a day is 24 hours to god, then I fail to see how there can be a gap between the creation of man and animals.

Exactly... the concept of a "day" to God could not be our own concept. Man created time.

Everything that you guys have been talking about in your last 5 posts after mine is in the video I linked. I highly recommend watching it, it makes a lot of sense.

1. Gap between 1:1 and 1:2 can still be viable even if a day is 24 hours. If you read it close, 1:1 really isn't technically included in "day 1".

2. The only comment I have to the length of creation days is this. After each "day" the Bible says "And the evening and the morning was the ___ day". It doesn't say and many evenings and mornings, it says evening and morning. Now, a person who takes the Bible literally would call this a 24 hour period. A person who takes most of the Bible as figurative would say "well, it just meant a beginning and an ending symbolically with evening and morning. The end of an 'era' so to speak".

See, even as someone who believes in 24 hour creation days, I can argue "for" the days being long periods of time as well .

adamy35 wrote: Everything that you guys have been talking about in your last 5 posts after mine is in the video I linked. I highly recommend watching it, it makes a lot of sense.

Watched it long ago, I agree with some parts, don't agree with others, but the ideas are very well thought out for sure.

cbus4life wrote:

believer wrote:

74Leps wrote:The belief in evolution is the basis for the moral relativism of our times; affecting such issues as abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc. Christians should arm themselves with a good book on apologetics and read up on materials from places such as Creation Ministries International or the Institute for Creation Research. Both sites often feature recent findings in science that support the Creation/Christian viewpoint.

True but good luck with that. Haven't you learned yet? Liberalism means being open-minded to all points of view except, of course, Christian ones.

What does this have to do with Liberalism?

And, that is a pretty sweeping generalization, and not really based on anything substantial.

Hell, even the ACLU has defended the rights of Christians in the past.

Take a deep breath. I enjoy your posts, but this whole line you throw out all the time is getting old.

I didn't mention liberalism, but believe humanism based on evolution, which is untrue, has led to the moral decay of this country.

Humanism has been embedded in our public education systems - promoting evolution as fact. And in our universities for several generations now. Evolution is not based on science, it's based on a faith/religion.

Humanism relies on the 'goodness' of man, not any higher source, to be able to solve/overcome all problems. The problem is, that what is considered good is relative to nothing other than man's opinions - moral relativism. It's increasingly in our courts and politics. And moral relativism is a slippery slope.

Show me in the Bible where gay marriage is OK with God.

Some quotes on humanism:

"Humanism is not new. It is, in fact, man's second oldest faith. Its promise was whispered in the first days of the Creation under the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil: 'Ye shall be as gods.'"
-- Whittaker Chambers

"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classrooms by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith... these teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach... The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and new, the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism, resplendent in its promise of a world in which the never-realized Christian ideal of 'love thy neighbor' will finally be achieved."
-- John Dunphy, Humanist Magazine, Jan/Feb, 1985

"Education is thus a most powerful ally of humanism. What can the theistic Sunday schools, meeting for an hour once a week, do to stem the tide of a five-day program of humanistic teaching?"
-- Charles Francis Potter, a signer of the 1933 Humanist Manifesto, in "Humanism: A New Religion", 1930

"(E)very child in America entering school at the age of five is insane because he comes to school with certain allegiances to our founding fathers, toward his parents, toward belief in a supernatural being, toward the sovereignty of this nation as a separate entity... It's up to you teachers to make all these sick children well by creating the international children of the future."
-- Dr. Chester M. Pierce, Professor of Education and Psychiatry, Medicine and Graduate School of Education, Harvard University, in a 1972 address to the Association for Childhood Education International in Denver

ricola wrote:It's very refreshing to see a dicussion concerning religion, and Christianity in particular here, and have it be civil, not condescending or inflammatory. kudos to you Ernest for keeping it that way. Some of the issues brought up here; ie the struggles, etc are ones many of us have. Trying to live a Chrstian life in a very un-christian and dark world is trying at times to say the least. I think the key is focusing on the person of Jesus: WWJD has become so modernized and trivialized, it's become the butt of jokes instead of a way of life. Too many churches and too many "Christians" don't live like Jesus, and thus the world's view of Christianity and Christians is not at all what I think Jesus intended. He would be appalled if walked the earth today and saw what was done and said in the name of Christianity. having said that, I way too often fail to live that life---it's certainly my struggle to try to show the love of Jesus on a daily basis when the world is basically full of jerks and plain old mean and nasty people.

Very nice post ricola.

I too agree that "trying to live a Chrstian life in a very un-christian and dark world is trying at times to say the least." is probably my biggest struggle. Not to mention when you're with friends and something comes up that you don't agree with and you have to make a decision. I try to remember His Beatitude: "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me."

Unfortunately, this too, IMO, is true "too many churches and too many "Christians" don't live like Jesus, and thus the world's view of Christianity and Christians is not at all what I think Jesus intended." If we don't set a good example then or faith will tend to lose credibility.

ernest,

It's only human to ask questions. I may offer Luke 11:5-9. Persistence...seek and you shall find. I know it sounds easier said than done but make time to be alone in prayer and open your mind to His voice.

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

I tend to also think that one probably couldn't live the "exactly" the same life when one rejects Christ while the other accepts Him. Yet I also believe that "accepting" Christ means more than just believing He existed. It means to make an effort to be more like Him.

About the mass murderer who confesses...one needs to repent as well. Confession is more like, yes I did it. Repentance is, I'm sincerely sorry and wish not to repeat my offense and make an effort not to. God knows our heart and truly knows if one has truly repented.

I agree, this has been a very civil thread. Kudos to everyone.

Captain Cavalier wrote:I tend to also think that one probably couldn't live the "exactly" the same life when one rejects Christ while the other accepts Him. Yet I also believe that "accepting" Christ means more than just believing He existed. It means to make an effort to be more like Him.

Yes, I understand that, but in the situation I listed, I want there to be no variables.

Situation:

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In that situation, the ONLY variables are the ENDS of the sentences, not the life lived. The life lived is EXACTLY the same in each.

re: your "situation":

I don't know what happens in scenario #1. Only God knows that. I personally find it hard to believe that God would treat that same African tirbesman that "lived a good life" and never had a chance to hear about God the same as many here who have heard and not only reject Him , but often do it in a beligerant way. But there are certainly those who believe that, and use that as a reason to become missionaries to "the uttermost parts of the world"
I think the Bible is clear on 2 and 3: If you hear and reject you go to hell, if you hear and accecpt you go to heaven. The life lived (i.e. good works, etc) has nothing to do with where you end up.

ricola wrote:I think the Bible is clear on 2 and 3: If you hear and reject you go to hell, if you hear and accecpt you go to heaven. The life lived (i.e. good works, etc) has nothing to do with where you end up.

Yep, I know the biblical reference, and I guess that is why I have a tough time with the situation. In each situation, the person lived the exact same life... mirrors of each other. Yet, one gets punished, and the other does not.

This is a TERRIBLE comparison, but it's like refusing to answer the question, "Who's your daddy?" ... "Me? OK, come on in." In that situation, God sounds like a bouncer.

Kinda like the Biblical refernce: You're offering a free meal to anyone who accepts. Whoever accepte the invitation gets to come in and eat; those who don't accept the invitation miss out on the meal The invitation is the same to everyone; it's not the server's fault who accepts or declines.

Yes, the biblical "meal" reference is definitely better than the "bouncer" reference! lol

One may need to remember that not all "good works" are pleasing to God. For example, if one gives a lot to charity for the sole reason of getting noticed or personal gain, God will not be pleased with him. "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 6:1

So two could live the same life but only God knows their intentions and therefore will pass judgement accordingly.

"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven". Matthew 10:33

I also do not see God condemning anyone who has never had the chance to accept Him.

Again, and I hate to keep bringing this up, b/c you have very good points, which all make great sense.

The "intentions" of each person are another variable. Intentions are not to vary. Like in economics, when looking at a demand curve:

Ceteris paribus... all other things held constant. The variables are the three mentioned in the scenarios.

I know... it's tough to look at it in black/white, b/c in life, there are too many "it depends." In these scenarios, throw out all the "it depends."

74Leps wrote:

cbus4life wrote:What does this have to do with Liberalism?

And, that is a pretty sweeping generalization, and not really based on anything substantial.

Hell, even the ACLU has defended the rights of Christians in the past.

Take a deep breath. I enjoy your posts, but this whole line you throw out all the time is getting old.

I didn't mention liberalism, but believe humanism based on evolution, which is untrue, has led to the moral decay of this country.

Humanism has been embedded in our public education systems - promoting evolution as fact. And in our universities for several generations now. Evolution is not based on science, it's based on a faith/religion.

Humanism relies on the 'goodness' of man, not any higher source, to be able to solve/overcome all problems. The problem is, that what is considered good is relative to nothing other than man's opinions - moral relativism. It's increasingly in our courts and politics. And moral relativism is a slippery slope.

Precisely. Moral relativism at the heart of liberalism. The problem is those who subscribe and blindly cling to it cannot see that secular humanism is indeed a faith (religion) in and of itself. It's worship of self which, as you mention, has been in the human experience since God made us free-agents.

And, as I pointed out with the above quotes from humanists - a State religion is being mandated under the guise of so-called science. It has been going on for a long time. And look at the results of this 'moral relativism' in our education systems and in our families.

Starting to debate again. Anyone else care to share any struggles?

ernest_t_bass wrote: Starting to debate again. Anyone else care to share any struggles?

If you lead your life as a good person, helping others and trying to be the best person you can, you should have no struggle in what you believe. At the end of your life, you can look back and honestly have contempt with how you lived your life then no matter what you believe you will go into death knowing that A. if there is a heaven your going to be there or B. if it is just nothing and your dead for good, you will at least have lived your life the way you would want it to be.


If you question your faith, you probably are starting to realize that it isn't what's best for people...Being the best person you can and supporting your friends and family is what truly matters, not devoting hours upon hours of time to something you really arne't sure about. I mean i'm only 21 and I don't believe in the idea of a religion, just giving you my two cents on the matter!

Sounds to me the biggest struggle everyone has is the same. I have read 4 pages where everything was about the individual, well thats problem #1, it is not about you or how you feel, it is about God and his getting glory. God is to be glorified through the Son, Jesus could have taken the easy way out and not came to die for mans sins, but he did it for the joy set before him. Faith is not about the individual it is about glorifying God, of course everyone fails to live up to the expectation, but that is where Grace comes in. It is not about how much you work for God, but how much you allow him to work for you. There is nothing that anyone can do for God that he did not give them first. He is the giver and the gift. If you think you are doing good for God, that is what the pharisees did, and thought God would reward them, but Jesus called them white washed tombs. I am a worm who does not deserve my next breathe, and will not begin to believe that God owes me anything. If you wonder why God chooses some and not others, you are looking at it wrong, you should look at it as why would God choose anyone, for none deserve it.

tigerballonline wrote: Sounds to me the biggest struggle everyone has is the same. I have read 4 pages where everything was about the individual, well thats problem #1, it is not about you or how you feel, it is about God and his getting glory. God is to be glorified through the Son, Jesus could have taken the easy way out and not came to die for mans sins, but he did it for the joy set before him. Faith is not about the individual it is about glorifying God, of course everyone fails to live up to the expectation, but that is where Grace comes in. It is not about how much you work for God, but how much you allow him to work for you. There is nothing that anyone can do for God that he did not give them first. He is the giver and the gift. If you think you are doing good for God, that is what the pharisees did, and thought God would reward them, but Jesus called them white washed tombs. I am a worm who does not deserve my next breathe, and will not begin to believe that God owes me anything. If you wonder why God chooses some and not others, you are looking at it wrong, you should look at it as why would God choose anyone, for none deserve it.

I don't disagree with anyone's religious beliefs, how could I, it is their belief.

What I contend, is that religion is a way for the human mind to try and contemplate the unknown. No more or no less.

Those that don't believe in a religion, possess a mind set that is strong enough to contemplate that our life is just part of nature, nothing more, nothing less.