jordo212000 wrote:

devil1197 wrote: trep, that's not what Jordo said. He said elite teams do not rebuild, they just reload.

Go read his comment, nowhere does it say teams are bound for a down year. Sorry.

LSU? Yes, they won their bowl game last year but I'd say a 5 loss year isn't reloading off their NCG victory. Along with 3 losses this year with Arkansas still on the schedule and their bowl game. It could be 3-5 losses the way they are playing.

This whole argument started when you claimed that the year Ohio State played LSU they were rebuilding, yet were playing in the championship.

For me, it all comes down to the fact that OSU accomplished less the next year. I think that when people say OSU was "rebuilding" or "reloading" or whatever they want to call it overshadows the bigger flaws in that team. It wasn't a lack of talent or even a lack of developed talent. They had an entire year of college football that they played together. It was a lack of discipline and a lack of big game coaching and adjustments that lost them that game.

And so we are clear on the definitions here:

"rebuilding" = total overhaul of the program. maybe a once proud program that has fallen on tough times and is searching for its identity, but it is a name brand school and will be back. (i.e. Notre Dame, Michigan, Nebraska, Miami, Ohio State in Coop's late years/Tress' first year)

"reloading" = competes most years for the national championship. may have a year or two out of contention but is found in the top 25 every year and smoothly replaces its pieces to allow for continued success. (i.e. Florida, USC, LSU, Texas, OSU 2004, OSU 2007 etc.). And reloading is certainly not an excuse for losing a game by 14 points (that wasn't as close as the score).

Heck, Florida played right with LSU in death valley in 2007.

devil1197 wrote: Even in the B10 as weak as it was, OSU had the talent while rebuilding to win in the B10 because it was horrible. Then you throw the OOC schedule into the mix and it becomes worse. Ohio State, with how great they recruit, should be in the title picture for the B10 every year. Now in 2007, the B10 was terrible and it enabled a not so good Buckeyes team to slide into the NCG.

Yes, OSU made it to the national championship because of a horrible conference and OCC schedule. Add that too 4+ teams losing after the UM game.

OSU had a good team in 2007. The talent was there to play with LSU and certainly not lose 38-24 in a game that wasn't as close as the final score.

Once again, my main problem with labeling that as a "rebuilding" year is that it focuses the attention away from the lack of discipline and big game coaching that occurred in that game. OSU had the talent to compete with LSU, but the coaches didn't maximize the potential of that team...which is a reoccurring theme lately in OSU football.

trep, I can understand why you would feel that about the 2008 team. But that team imo had everything going for them but just didn't put it together. When Wells was injured and then everyone pushing Pryor to get PT, it just didn't happen for that team which I thought was truly talented. The coaching hampered them a bit.

When I consider reloading its 0-3 losses, in contention for conference/national title and solid play on both sides of the football continually through the whole year. I cannot look at that 2007 Florida defense and not consider that a rebuilding year. I also cannot look at the USC defense, now facing good offenses, and not consider that a rebuilding of the defense. Both units were nowhere near the previous units.

I really didn't think the talent was there in 2007 outside of Wells at RB and a couple defensive players. The offensive line was terrible but it was hidden by Wells. Boeckman threw for yards but he also had more INT's than Pryor has now. He also had no mobility which was the reason why he lost his job because the OL was terrible from 2007-2008.

devil1197 wrote:

When I consider reloading its 0-3 losses, in contention for conference/national title and solid play on both sides of the football continually through the whole year. I cannot look at that 2007 Florida defense and not consider that a rebuilding year. I also cannot look at the USC defense, now facing good offenses, and not consider that a rebuilding of the defense.

I really didn't think the talent was there in 2007 outside of Wells at RB and a couple defensive players. The offensive line was terrible but it was hidden by Wells.

That's fine, we can agree to disagree.

And you will not hear any disagreement from me about the offensive line. I think a little part of the o-line died the night that they were humiliated by Moss and Harvey from Florida and they have never been the same since and it just keeps getting passed down from year to year.

trep14 wrote:

devil1197 wrote:

When I consider reloading its 0-3 losses, in contention for conference/national title and solid play on both sides of the football continually through the whole year. I cannot look at that 2007 Florida defense and not consider that a rebuilding year. I also cannot look at the USC defense, now facing good offenses, and not consider that a rebuilding of the defense.

I really didn't think the talent was there in 2007 outside of Wells at RB and a couple defensive players. The offensive line was terrible but it was hidden by Wells.

That's fine, we can agree to disagree.

And you will not hear any disagreement from me about the offensive line. I think a little part of the o-line died the night that they were humiliated by Moss and Harvey from Florida and they have never been the same since and it just keeps getting passed down from year to year.

The offensive line was great in 2006 outside of the Florida debacle, but they graduated a majority of those guys and the line never became dominant again from 2007-2008.

The offensive line play the past 1 1/2 months has been amazing and they have play some pretty decent defensive fronts (Iowa and PSU).

Al Bundy wrote: We are lucky to be in a great age of Buckeye football. This is one of the best decades that the Bucks have ever had. We probably won't truly appreciate it until Tressel is gone. Thanks for another title, Coach Tressel.

Most YSU fans took Tressel for granted when he was at YSU. And, when the team was beaten soundly by Georgia Southern in the 99 NC game and then lost to Richmond in the 1st round of the 1AA/FCS playoffs in 2000, some were saying the game had "passed him by".

Well, Tress soon left for OSU, and the past 9 years YSU has made the FCS playoffs only 1 time, and the program at the present time is basically back to where it was in 1985, the season before Tressel was hired.

I see alot of people talk about the weak Big Ten, but the reality is the Big Ten has never been a great conference top-to-bottom. When Woody coached it was basically the "Big 2" of OSU and UM, with an occasional great season by MSU or maybe Purdue. When Earle Bruce was coaching, it was still the "Big 2", and occasionally Iowa, MSU, Wisconsin might have a really good team. In the 90's, teams like Northwestern started to improve, but the conference title still usually came down to the OSU-UM game, and we all no how that game often turned out with Cooper as coach.

The Big 10 is not the best conference in the country, but I believe the teams at the bottom are more competitive now, and have the ability to beat the best teams on a given week. At this point, the only HC that I think could honestly be deemed better than Tressel is possibly Urban Meyer. There are 5-6 coaches whom I'd say are equal with Tressel, but 3 of those coaches and their teams will not be playing in a BCS bowl this year. Pete Caroll(USC), Les Miles(LSU) and Bob Stoops(Oklahoma). Mack Brown does a very good job at Texas, but he only has 1 NC at Texas, and has been haunted by many "big game" losses. Tressel is far from perfect, but this will be the 7th time in the past 8 seasons OSU is playing in a BCS Bowl, and the 6th time in the past 8 years OSU has won or shared the Big Ten Title. Add a record of 8-1 against UM, 1 BCS Championship, 3 BCS Championship Games, and at the end of the day, OSU will be hard pressed to find a HC that will surpass the accomplishments of the Tressel coached teams when he is finished coaching at OSU.

One more point. Over the last 9 years, Jim Tressel and the OSU football team has totally ruined the football program at Michigan.

UM has gone from a team that owned OSU and was a top 5-10 program almost every season, to a program in total disarray which just finished the season 5-7.

2000: UM enters the game 7-3/5-2 and OSU was 8-2/5-2. UM won 38-26, then beat Auburn in the Citrus Bowl to finish 9-3. OSU then loses to South Carolina, finishes 8-4 and Cooper is fired.

Enter Jim Tressel

2001: Michigan entered the OSU game 8-2/6-1, OSU 6-4/5-3. The loss cost UM a Big 10 Title
2002: UM entered the OSU game 9-2/6-1, and OSU was 11-0/7-0. The loss kept UM from winning a Big Ten title and playing in a BCS Bowl.

2003: UM entered 9-2/6-1, OSU was 10-1/6-1, and the win by UM resulted in a Big Ten Title and trip to the Rose Bowl.

2004: UM entered the OSU game 9-1/7-0, OSU was 6-4/4-3 and the loss kept UM from an undefeated record in the Big 10

2005: UM was 7-3/5-2 entering the game, OSU was 8-2/6-1 and the loss prevented UM from playing in a New Year's Day Bowl, and instead sent UM to the Alamo Bowl

2006: UM entered the game 11-0/7-0. OSU was 11-0/7-0. The loss cost UM a Big Ten title and a spot in the BCS Championship game

2007: UM entered the game 8-3/7-1, and OSU 10-1/7-1 the loss to OSU cost UM a Big Ten Title and Lloyd Carr his job.

2008: UM hires Rich Rodriguez and finishes 3-9
2009: Year #2 with Rich Rod, and UM finishes 5-7, with no bowl game for a 2nd straight season.

No Ohio State fan wants Tressel fired, we just want the offense to be opened up some. Then again, he wins most of his games with this bland and boring offense so its hard to hate on him for that.

jordo212000 wrote:

devil1197 wrote: If Russel makes the tackle in the Fiesta Bowl, this wouldn't even be a conversation imo.

OSU was just outplayed by Florida, no way around that loss imo. But the LSU game was hard for the Buckeyes. That was a team that was out of the NCG picture after beating UM. Then suddenly teams decide to piss down their legs and the rebuilding Buckeyes were shown the back door to the NCG. They weren't ready. We played right with Texas but Russell misses the tackle.

If my aunt had a dong she'd be my Uncle. If Ohio State scores more offense the Texas TD is moot. Get it? We can do this all day.

No argument about Florida. The fact Tress was so badly overmatched needs mentioned.

I dont buy the argument about LSU. You aren't rebuilding if you are playing in the National Championship game haha. In fact Ohio State was in the driver's seat for the National championship game until they lost to Illinois with a few weeks left in the season.

Every coach, no matter how good he is will lose games he "shouldn't" lose.
USC should not have lost to Stanford at home 55-21, but they did. Florida should not have lost to Mchigan a couple of years ago but they did...Les Miles and his LSU Tigers should not have lost all the games they did the year after their National Championship....but they did, and we can go on and on about this. Ohio State should not have lost to Illinois taking them out of bowl contention, but they did. And now Jocko, I Notice that you are suggesting that if Forcier hadn't played so horrifically, they may well have beaten Ohio State yesterday. You may be right about that but perhaps we should consider a few things. What did Ohio State have to play for? They were already in the Rose Bowl regardless of the game's outcome. Michigan was desperately attempting to find a way, anyway they could win and become bowl eligible, and the game was being played in the Big House in front of 104,000 screaming fans and most of them were wearing Michigan colors. Could it be that the Buckeye pressure on Forcier, particularly late in the game when they still had a chance was the difference? Those picks Forcier threw may have been hurried a little by the Buckeye's relentless defense. And of course, the bottom line...at the end of the day who is being interviewed on the sidelines? Forcier had a bad game and IF he hadn't, maybe Michigan would have won but as you yourself so accurately stated in a previous post on this very same issue....
"If my aunt had a dong, she'd be my uncle. If OSU scores more offense, the Texas TD is moot. Get it? We can do this all day." I must admit that you are right, Jocko, and at the end of the day Coach Tressel will more than likely be the Coach being interviewed on the sidelines as the winner.
(Not to mention the fact that Texas has great athletes and a great defense that year as well.)

sleeper wrote: No Ohio State fan wants Tressel fired, we just want the offense to be opened up some. Then again, he wins most of his games with this bland and boring offense so its hard to hate on him for that.

I really don't know why it is that hard to understand for some of these guys.

Actually the Big 10 was one of the best conferences in football throughout the 90's. Now its one of the worst. The coaching is down and the talent it down. How many all pros are in the NFL from Tressel? Cooper wasn't a great coach either but he had boatloads of them. And for those dogging USC rebuilding or what not....whatever. They still beat the Big 10's best team on the road and have been beating the Big 10's best teams all decade long.

14 points scored on offense against a terrible Michigan team with getting 5 TO's....nuff said about Tressell and his coaching. His selection of offensive plays is worse than "Tecmo Bowl." His only savior is he coaches in a conference that doesn't have the talent to stop his plain vanilla offenses. Maybe he should think about running different plays out of the same formations as opposed to running the same play out of different formations. Its just like somebody on here said, "If I know what play they are going to run then imagine what the other coaches know"

lacknett wrote: Actually the Big 10 was one of the best conferences in football throughout the 90's. Now its one of the worst. The coaching is down and the talent it down. How many all pros are in the NFL from Tressel? Cooper wasn't a great coach either but he had boatloads of them. And for those dogging USC rebuilding or what not....whatever. They still beat the Big 10's best team on the road and have been beating the Big 10's best teams all decade long.

14 points scored on offense against a terrible Michigan team with getting 5 TO's....nuff said about Tressell and his coaching. His selection of offensive plays is worse than "Tecmo Bowl." His only savior is he coaches in a conference that doesn't have the talent to stop his plain vanilla offenses. Maybe he should think about running different plays out of the same formations as opposed to running the same play out of different formations. Its just like somebody on here said, "If I know what play they are going to run then imagine what the other coaches know"

Spot on.

lacknett wrote: Actually the Big 10 was one of the best conferences in football throughout the 90's. Now its one of the worst. The coaching is down and the talent it down. How many all pros are in the NFL from Tressel? Cooper wasn't a great coach either but he had boatloads of them. And for those dogging USC rebuilding or what not....whatever. They still beat the Big 10's best team on the road and have been beating the Big 10's best teams all decade long.

14 points scored on offense against a terrible Michigan team with getting 5 TO's....nuff said about Tressell and his coaching. His selection of offensive plays is worse than "Tecmo Bowl." His only savior is he coaches in a conference that doesn't have the talent to stop his plain vanilla offenses. Maybe he should think about running different plays out of the same formations as opposed to running the same play out of different formations. Its just like somebody on here said, "If I know what play they are going to run then imagine what the other coaches know"

^^^^
+1

Tressel has taken this team to a BCS Bowl game 7 out of 9 years. He has a national title. We've won the Big 10 Five years running.

OSU fans have no clue how good we've got it. You're not going to win a national title every year.

Tressel has done nothing but win since he's been here. Moronic fans with idiotic expectations baffle me. Tressel isn't perfect, but he wins.

OSU had much more talent than Michigan. Tress knows that. He's not going to risk anything when he doesn't have to. He fundamentally believes a 1 point win against Michigan is just as good as a 40 point win. Was it a perfect game? No. But, I never thought I'd see the day with OSU fans that were unsatisfied with a WIN AGAINST MICHIGAN.

Some of you bummy fans should just go hop on the Cincinnati bandwagon.

The SEC isn't the best conference this year. The Pac 10 is the best all around conference. This shit just goes in circles. The Big 10 will be back. Some of the lack of historical perspective on this site just continues to baffle me.

Sage wrote: Tressel has taken this team to a BCS Bowl game 7 out of 9 years. He has a national title. We've won the Big 10 Five years running.

OSU fans have no clue how good we've got it. You're not going to win a national title every year.

Tressel has done nothing but win since he's been here. Moronic fans with idiotic expectations baffle me. Tressel isn't perfect, but he wins.

OSU had much more talent than Michigan. Tress knows that. He's not going to risk anything when he doesn't have to. He fundamentally believes a 1 point win against Michigan is just as good as a 40 point win. Was it a perfect game? No. But, I never thought I'd see the day with OSU fans that were unsatisfied with a WIN AGAINST MICHIGAN.

Some of you bummy fans should just go hop on the Cincinnati bandwagon.

The SEC isn't the best conference this year. The Pac 10 is the best all around conference. This shit just goes in circles. The Big 10 will be back. Some of the lack of historical perspective on this site just continues to baffle me.

This. You guys have one of the best coaches in the game. IS his offense vanilla sometimes? Yes. Is he predictable sometimes? Yes. Does he win very very regularly? Yes. His style is just different, but he gets it done. I look to see you guys get the bcs monkey off your back this year.

While top teams may "reload" every year not every year do top teams have National Championships hopes. USC LSU and OU are all having down years for their programs this season. You can argue that Bradford's injusry hurt OU but, what really hurt OU is replacing their OLINE. USC is the best recruiting school in the past 10 years and even they are having a down year after trying to replace pretty much their entire defensive every year. LSU is struggling on offensive.

Now should these top schools contend for BCS games and their Conference titles every year? YES but, to say that every single year you should contend for a National title is crazy is this day and age. In the 90's there were only a few top programs now there are more schools paying coachs huge salaries, spending money on facilities, and producing NFL talent. There are more games shown on Natonal TV each week then there ever been before. Kids don't have to choose one of the top schools to be shown on tv thanks to ESPN and other networks showing games every week. The NCAA has limited coaches on schloarships and roster sizes even limiting the number of walkons aloud. The NCAA has cracked down on the amount of time coaches can spend recruting and how many calls and texts they can make. This just opens the door for other teams to catch up and yet Ohio State is still winning year after year. Were still getting the top ranked players were still winning the big ten. You have seen other big schools tumble like UM and ND. Northern schools are having hard times getting kids to stay in a cold environment when they could go to Auburn and still be on tv and in 90 degree weather with no snow most of the year. Look at the Powerhouses OSU may be the least great Northern School. Not to mention that it is harder then ever to get football players in to OSU for academic reasons. We lose 1-2 recruits a year due to grades that last few years that are still able to get into SEC schools.

Tressel is old school but, it is working and he is still producing NFL talent and winning titles. Every couple years we are serious threats to win a national championship. If you expect us to win every year they why was it 32 years between National Titles before Tressel arrived.

By the way,

Big Ten National Titles in the
80's: 82 Penn State 86 Penn State
90's: 1997 Michigan Split with Nebraska
2000's: 2002 Ohio State

Really the big ten is only national Champions on average once every 10 years since the 80's or 1.3 to be exact.

sportchampps wrote: By the way,

Big Ten National Titles in the
80's: 82 Penn State 86 Penn State
90's: 1997 Michigan Split with Nebraska
2000's: 2002 Ohio State

Really the big ten is only national Champions on average once every 10 years since the 80's or 1.3 to be exact.

Penn State wasn't in the Big Ten in 82 and 86. Tressel is the only Big Ten coach to win an outright national title since Woody did it.

sportchampps wrote: By the way,

Big Ten National Titles in the
80's: 82 Penn State 86 Penn State
90's: 1997 Michigan Split with Nebraska
2000's: 2002 Ohio State

Really the big ten is only national Champions on average once every 10 years since the 80's or 1.3 to be exact.

Did Penn State not join the Big 10 until the 90's?

Yeah, i just put them in there now to point out current teams in the big ten but, if you want to take them out then you can cut down the national titles to only .75 since the 80's with one coming in a split title.

lacknett wrote: Actually the Big 10 was one of the best conferences in football throughout the 90's. Now its one of the worst. The coaching is down and the talent it down. How many all pros are in the NFL from Tressel? Cooper wasn't a great coach either but he had boatloads of them. And for those dogging USC rebuilding or what not....whatever. They still beat the Big 10's best team on the road and have been beating the Big 10's best teams all decade long.

14 points scored on offense against a terrible Michigan team with getting 5 TO's....nuff said about Tressell and his coaching. His selection of offensive plays is worse than "Tecmo Bowl." His only savior is he coaches in a conference that doesn't have the talent to stop his plain vanilla offenses. Maybe he should think about running different plays out of the same formations as opposed to running the same play out of different formations. Its just like somebody on here said, "If I know what play they are going to run then imagine what the other coaches know"

exactly. we know the state of the big 10, we know it's national reputation at the moment. it's not good. so why is that all we care about? people get so hung up on the big 10 championships and don't care about our NATIONAL reputation which is what i'm concerned about. i want to be one of the best teams in the country, not just in the big 10. and lately, every time we play someone with NATIONAL credibility, we get beat, and sometimes very very soundly. we've got to the point where if we play someone good out of conference, most people are encouraged by close losses. The man who controls an offense that is consistently ranked in the 70-90th range nationally with top 10 talent is not doing his job very well IMO. That man is Jim Tressel. He does not coach the defense that has carried him throughout his career. he coaches the offense and he sucks at it. and he's got too big of an ego to realize it and get some help. which is why i loathe him.

This_DJ_3 wrote:

lacknett wrote: Actually the Big 10 was one of the best conferences in football throughout the 90's. Now its one of the worst. The coaching is down and the talent it down. How many all pros are in the NFL from Tressel? Cooper wasn't a great coach either but he had boatloads of them. And for those dogging USC rebuilding or what not....whatever. They still beat the Big 10's best team on the road and have been beating the Big 10's best teams all decade long.

14 points scored on offense against a terrible Michigan team with getting 5 TO's....nuff said about Tressell and his coaching. His selection of offensive plays is worse than "Tecmo Bowl." His only savior is he coaches in a conference that doesn't have the talent to stop his plain vanilla offenses. Maybe he should think about running different plays out of the same formations as opposed to running the same play out of different formations. Its just like somebody on here said, "If I know what play they are going to run then imagine what the other coaches know"

exactly. we know the state of the big 10, we know it's national reputation at the moment. it's not good. so why is that all we care about? people get so hung up on the big 10 championships and don't care about our NATIONAL reputation which is what i'm concerned about. i want to be one of the best teams in the country, not just in the big 10. and lately, every time we play someone with NATIONAL credibility, we get beat, and sometimes very very soundly. we've got to the point where if we play someone good out of conference, most people are encouraged by close losses. The man who controls an offense that is consistently ranked in the 70-90th range nationally with top 10 talent is not doing his job very well IMO. That man is Jim Tressel. He does not coach the defense that has carried him throughout his career. he coaches the offense and he sucks at it. and he's got too big of an ego to realize it and get some help. which is why i loathe him.

Great post.

Cue obligatory "But we win the Big 10!!!! What more do you want?!?!!?! You're not a real Buckeye fan!!!!" response from the Tressel nuthuggers.

Some of you Buckeye fans are crazy. Sooner or later you will run him out and you will ruin what you have. Mark my words. He is a great coach and to say otherwise is ridiculous.

bo shemmy3337 wrote: Some of you Buckeye fans are crazy. Sooner or later you will run him out and you will ruin what you have. Mark my words. He is a great coach and to say otherwise is ridiculous.

Exactly.

Am I happy with B10 titles and 10+ wins every year, yes. I don't like what we have done in big time games lately but if OSU wins their BCS bowl game on January 1st, they will have more appearances and wins than 90+% of the BCS eligible schools. If OSU can get the W and then turn around by beating Miami in the Shoe, people won't have anything to complain about for some time. OSU will be ranked in the Top 5 going into next year with a W in the Rose Bowl.

lacknett wrote: Actually the Big 10 was one of the best conferences in football throughout the 90's. Now its one of the worst. The coaching is down and the talent it down. How many all pros are in the NFL from Tressel? Cooper wasn't a great coach either but he had boatloads of them. And for those dogging USC rebuilding or what not....whatever. They still beat the Big 10's best team on the road and have been beating the Big 10's best teams all decade long.

14 points scored on offense against a terrible Michigan team with getting 5 TO's....nuff said about Tressell and his coaching. His selection of offensive plays is worse than "Tecmo Bowl." His only savior is he coaches in a conference that doesn't have the talent to stop his plain vanilla offenses. Maybe he should think about running different plays out of the same formations as opposed to running the same play out of different formations. Its just like somebody on here said, "If I know what play they are going to run then imagine what the other coaches know"

Lacknett you thieving bastard! You totally stole my "Tecmo Bowl" line from yesterday at the bar haha