Progressives, part 3...

posted by kizer permanente

You act like people are just beating down doors to adopt ALL babies. You act like there are kids who go to the state as babies that never get adopted and bounce from foster care to foster care til the time out... and NEVER become productive members to society bc they never had a prayer. There's over 400,000 kids in adoption system right now.. most are black and brown kids. You're lying to yourself that everyone is just knocking down the doors to adopt them..even as babies.. What's that number going to be after states outlaw abortion? 

You’re numbers are just wrong. There are 400,000 kids in the FOSTER system not 400,000 babies waiting to be adopted.

Those are facts, for the most part babies are adopted. It’s rare that a baby is not adopted and pushed into the foster system, like less than 1%. The 400,000 number is foster care kids taken from their parents, 100,000 of which will never be allowed back with their parents, 20,000 a year of which age out of the system.

The kids not being adopted are older children taken from their parents, babies are adopted nearly 100% of the time.

You are just wrong on this and statistics proves it.

posted by kizer permanente

This doesn't even address what adoption does psychologically to a mother.. but ya.. you never have to worry about that.. which is pretty much the root of the problem. 

Studies have proven that adoption does less psychological harm to a mother than abortion does, so that’s a false narrative.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Do most pro-lifers understand that half of all abortions are obtained by women below the federal property level (i.e. really fucking poor) and another 25% are considered low income/poor.  More than two-thirds cannot afford to pay the cost of the abortion.  Blacks and Hispanics are far more likely to get an abortion and represent greatly disproportionate numbers of the total abortions.  The last 5 years have averaged 750k-800k abortions per year in the US.  That’s almost 4 million.  

So what happens to these children going forward if abortion is banned tomorrow?  We are going to have a large growth to the impoverished/unemployed households.  Who’s going to take care of these new lives?

Maybe it will change behavior.  Instead of promoting behavior that leads to bad outcomes maybe we go back to fundamentals:  chronologically - get educated / get a job / get married / have kids.  Compare and contrast that with our current incentivized structure of:  ignorant people having kids without family structure and/or a job.  

This isn't rocket science.  The return to personal responsibility is the only thing that will insure that we all will have a chance to succeed, individually and as a society.   We were doing well up until about 5 decades ago when we decided to pay people trillions of dollars to be unproductive and also afforded them the convenience of 'disposable children'.  It is time to get back to basics.

posted by queencitybuckeye

True, but what actual, practical plans are in place to handle the increase in children born to the poor and don't want the kid? Making abortions illegal would be the beginning of a plan, not the plan.

There are millions of people who wish to adopt, and have to wait years to do so.  But beyond that, we have to begin to change behavior by recognizing that personal responsibility is fully necessary for a well-functioning society, and valuing all human life is at the top of our priorities.

posted by jmog

Having babies doesn’t create a problem. Hope that helps. 

I’m sure in your brain this simplistic thought is bliss.

posted by queencitybuckeye

Not sure where you got me holding that opinion.

I quoted the wrong post 🤦‍♂️.

posted by jmog

You’re numbers are just wrong. There are 400,000 kids in the FOSTER system not 400,000 babies waiting to be adopted.

Those are facts, for the most part babies are adopted. It’s rare that a baby is not adopted and pushed into the foster system, like less than 1%. The 400,000 number is foster care kids taken from their parents, 100,000 of which will never be allowed back with their parents, 20,000 a year of which age out of the system.

The kids not being adopted are older children taken from their parents, babies are adopted nearly 100% of the time.

You are just wrong on this and statistics proves it.

I didn’t say babies, but of course you knew that. That’s how you like to debate people right? To try to make it seem like you’re right? By countering points they didn’t make. There’s a term for that. But, of course, I’ve labeled you that many times and nothing changes. Point remains unchanged. There’s a ton of kids in foster care for a reason. Bc no one wants them.  This will exacerbate that.  I have a feeling you know that as well.  The lighter the skin, the faster they’re adopted.  it’s well documented . you can choose to be blind to it if you want.  It’s not going away. Just because you choose to believe it won’t be an issue, doesn’t change reality.  But, hey… at least all the white babies will find a home. Better than nothing right? That’s the logic? 

https://theworld.org/stories/2019-02-21/us-adoption-system-discriminates-against-darker-skinned-children

I mean, if you're true left-wing, you should be (quietly) celebrating this. With how the secondary party tends to make gains when the other party holds the power combined with how Biden's approval rating is at a level where the word "approval" probably shouldn't be used to describe it, the Ds were looking FUBAR as far as at least the mid-terms go.

And now you have a hot-button issue to go all-out on the attack against, using all the Trump-level exaggerations and falsehoods imaginable in order to fire up the base and get people to the polls. I mean, if one Supreme Court leak is sufficient to dispel the apathy that Biden's presidency has generated, then that's a victory.

Because, today, that's all that politics are.

posted by Heretic

I mean, if you're true left-wing, you should be (quietly) celebrating this. With how the secondary party tends to make gains when the other party holds the power combined with how Biden's approval rating is at a level where the word "approval" probably shouldn't be used to describe it, the Ds were looking FUBAR as far as at least the mid-terms go.

And now you have a hot-button issue to go all-out on the attack against, using all the Trump-level exaggerations and falsehoods imaginable in order to fire up the base and get people to the polls. I mean, if one Supreme Court leak is sufficient to dispel the apathy that Biden's presidency has generated, then that's a victory.

Because, today, that's all that politics are.

I dont think you have to go all scorched earth into exaggerations and falsehoods to find millions of people who simply feel that they have a right to privacy and a right to control their own body without the gov't interference.  I do agree this could cost the GOP an election tho.

posted by jmog

Let’s assume for a minute you believed the fetus is alive which would make killing it murder.

If it was a random man/woman on the street that was being assaulted/murdered…

You’re first and most important thought is to prevent the murder.

Only after you have prevented the murder do you then worry about what is next, does the man/woman need help, money, a hospital, etc. You prevent the atrocity, then triage the immediate aftermath, then figure out the long term problems.

That’s how people think and act. Sorry you don’t understand why they are more worried about preventing what is murder to them than what happens after the murder.

Your “sorry you don’t understand” style of answering questions has gotten boring.  Try retiring it.

I understand your premise of dealing with the immediate crisis and then figure out the rest later.  I also hope for a future where personal responsibility is stronger across the board (as QO described).  But until that day comes, there’s going to be a cost to society.  I just hope that all those voices in favor of banning abortion don’t disappear when it comes time to step up for the next phase.  

posted by geeblock
I dont think you have to go all scorched earth into exaggerations and falsehoods to find millions of people who simply feel that they have a right to privacy and a right to control their own body without the gov't interference. 

They still do.  Stop the gaslighting. 

posted by QuakerOats

They still do.  Stop the gaslighting. 

oh ok lol 

posted by QuakerOats

There are millions of people who wish to adopt, and have to wait years to do so.  But beyond that, we have to begin to change behavior by recognizing that personal responsibility is fully necessary for a well-functioning society, and valuing all human life is at the top of our priorities.

Too many of the MAGA idiots (excuse the redundancy) think that valuing life ends at not allowing abortions.

posted by kizer permanente

I’m sure in your brain this simplistic thought is bliss.

No, I just live in reality that shows 2 million couples on the adoption waiting lists…so having more babies won’t create the problems you believe it will.

posted by kizer permanente

I didn’t say babies, but of course you knew that. That’s how you like to debate people right? To try to make it seem like you’re right? By countering points they didn’t make. There’s a term for that. But, of course, I’ve labeled you that many times and nothing changes. Point remains unchanged. There’s a ton of kids in foster care for a reason. Bc no one wants them.  This will exacerbate that.  I have a feeling you know that as well.  The lighter the skin, the faster they’re adopted.  it’s well documented . you can choose to be blind to it if you want.  It’s not going away. Just because you choose to believe it won’t be an issue, doesn’t change reality.  But, hey… at least all the white babies will find a home. Better than nothing right? That’s the logic? 

https://theworld.org/stories/2019-02-21/us-adoption-system-discriminates-against-darker-skinned-children

Since we are all talking about abortion here it is literally babies we are talking about. So yes, a normal thing to do is to assume you meant babies.

Don’t be obtuse just to cover up your mistake. 

posted by geeblock
I dont think you have to go all scorched earth into exaggerations and falsehoods to find millions of people who simply feel that they have a right to privacy and a right to control their own body without the gov't interference.  I do agree this could cost the GOP an election tho.

The right to your own body argument for the left isn’t valid anymore with how they wanted to force vaccines and masks. You can’t have it on one topic and not the other.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Your “sorry you don’t understand” style of answering questions has gotten boring.  Try retiring it.

I understand your premise of dealing with the immediate crisis and then figure out the rest later.  I also hope for a future where personal responsibility is stronger across the board (as QO described).  But until that day comes, there’s going to be a cost to society.  I just hope that all those voices in favor of banning abortion don’t disappear when it comes time to step up for the next phase.  

The 2 million couples on waiting lists for abortion will take care of the immediate “triage” need. The babies won’t end up in the foster care system like Kizer believes.

posted by queencitybuckeye

Too many of the MAGA idiots (excuse the redundancy) think that valuing life ends at not allowing abortions.

100% wrong, they value all innocent life.

posted by queencitybuckeye

Too many of the MAGA idiots (excuse the redundancy) think that valuing life ends at not allowing abortions.

Go on…

posted by jmog

The 2 million couples on waiting lists for abortion will take care of the immediate “triage” need. The babies won’t end up in the foster care system like Kizer believes.

That would be a good outcome.