2020 Presidential Election thread

posted by queencitybuckeye

Another issue is if you want a nation of laws, there is no provision in the constitution for taking from the rich to give to the poor. Taxes are intended to finance those things specifically enumerated by the constitution as legitimate roles of our federal government. Nothing else.

Sure but it doesn’t solve any issues. Everyone’s quality of life deteriorates with a growing poor class. It just affects people at a different pace.  That’s not good for any country. I’d prefer to acknowledge a problem exists and fix it and not pretend it doesn’t til it’s too late  personally . 

posted by majorspark

You have heard of war right?  And in this country you can be compelled to fight in one.  I think you are misunderstanding.

Ah I see what you mean. So what’s the answer?  Would you say it’s entirely possible that there could be a point where a government would have to draft people again to a war, even if just for defense? 

I do agree with you that we shouldn’t be engaging in wars as we currently do though  

posted by kizer permanente

Sure but it doesn’t solve any issues. Everyone’s quality of life deteriorates with a growing poor class. It just affects people at a different pace.  That’s not good for any country. I’d prefer to acknowledge a problem exists and fix it and not pretend it doesn’t til it’s too late  personally . 

Our system allows for upward mobility and greatly supports charity for those who may be poor through no fault of their own.  BIG government stifles upward mobility, leading to shared misery for all, and no way to break out of it.  Individual liberty and economic freedom are incredibly important.

posted by QuakerOats

Our system allows for upward mobility and greatly supports charity for those who may be poor through no fault of their own.  BIG government stifles upward mobility, leading to shared misery for all, and no way to break out of it.  Individual liberty and economic freedom are incredibly important.

Yeah ... that’s the problem though. Charity is awesome but doesn’t come close to funding the social programs to even get the poor class close to living just in poverty level.  

posted by kizer permanente

Ah I see what you mean. So what’s the answer?  Would you say it’s entirely possible that there could be a point where a government would have to draft people again to a war, even if just for defense? 

I do agree with you that we shouldn’t be engaging in wars as we currently do though  

I would think that if the war was just and necessary there would be no need to compel anyone to take part in it as there would be sufficient numbers of the people volunteering to take part in it.  I mean if someone is beating my door in with the intention of killing me and raping my wife I don't need to be compelled to fight.

One could argue our civil war was just yet both sides used conscription.  Also I believe the conscription laws at the time allowed for "rich" people to buy a substitute.

posted by kizer permanente

Sure but it doesn’t solve any issues. Everyone’s quality of life deteriorates with a growing poor class. It just affects people at a different pace.  That’s not good for any country. I’d prefer to acknowledge a problem exists and fix it and not pretend it doesn’t til it’s too late  personally . 

Fine, fix it, but if you insist that the federal government needs to do something to accomplish it (whatever the hell "it" is), modify the constitution to authorize it.

posted by queencitybuckeye

Fine, fix it, but if you insist that the federal government needs to do something to accomplish it (whatever the hell "it" is), modify the constitution to authorize it.

I get what you’re saying. I do wonder, knowing the pace at what Congress works, how effective we can react and repair a situation if it takes a constitutional amendment ? 

posted by majorspark

I would think that if the war was just and necessary there would be no need to compel anyone to take part in it as there would be sufficient numbers of the people volunteering to take part in it.  I mean if someone is beating my door in with the intention of killing me and raping my wife I don't need to be compelled to fight.

One could argue our civil war was just yet both sides used conscription.  Also I believe the conscription laws allowed for "rich" people to buy a substitute.

You’d think so but have you seen what’s available out there lol 

posted by kizer permanente

I get what you’re saying. I do wonder, knowing the pace at what Congress works, how effective we can react and repair a situation if it takes a constitutional amendment ? 

The word "we" that you used is a big part of the point. Congress should not do a damn thing they aren't authorized to do by a document that intentionally limits their power, but allows the people to grant it to them. It's supposed to be deliberate.

posted by queencitybuckeye

The word "we" that you used is a big part of the point. Congress should not do a damn thing they aren't authorized to do by a document that intentionally limits their power, but allows the people to grant it to them. It's supposed to be deliberate.

Again... I get the thinking. You’re acting as a constitutionalist. I get it. Does that help anything? Do you even care? It almost feels like you would rather see the place you live go to hell before someone goes against what our founding fathers said. 

QCB is exactly right.  Article I section 8 clearly spells out congress's power to tax.  Then provides a list as to what it can lay and collect taxes on.

posted by majorspark

I don’t think he’s wrong. I think the far left unfairly complains about capitalism that they’re benefiting from. I do think some on the right don’t care about the negatives of capitalism bc it’s not marginalizing them but someone else. I’m not against capitalism but I’m not for unchecked capitalism. I know we don’t have unchecked capitalism with our regulations and I’m fine with it. I feel greed can’t allow unchecked capitalism. 

posted by kizer permanente

Again... I get the thinking. You’re acting as a constitutionalist. I get it. Does that help anything? Do you even care? It almost feels like you would rather see the place you live go to hell before someone goes against what our founding fathers said. 

I like that the constitution, to the degree it's followed, helps to protect my rights to my life and my property. What protects us under the system you seem to want? Which has the lesser chance of abuse?

posted by queencitybuckeye

I like that the constitution, to the degree it's followed, helps to protects my rights to my life and my property. What protects us under the system you seem to want? Which has the lesser chance of abuse?

I seem to want? You mean the one we live in? I’m not sure what exactly you think I want. 

posted by kizer permanente

I seem to want? You mean the one we live in? I’m not sure what exactly you think I want. 

You seem to want the federal government to be allowed to solve, or more likely attempt to solve and mostly fail, any societal problem it chooses to address, without regard to whether the people have granted them the right to do so.

posted by queencitybuckeye

You seem to want the federal government to be allowed to solve, or more likely attempt to solve and mostly fail, any societal problem it chooses to address, without regard to whether the people have granted them the right to do so.

I think they do address it for the most part. My contention was if libertarians want to limit the authority and not collect taxes to do so, what do we do then? 

Don’t get me wrong ... I guess I’m one of the few people that think we have it pretty good here. I think we do better than most countries in solving problems of inequality. We’re never going to be perfect, but when you look around the world, we do better than most. I just wonder how we continue to do that if we don’t want to pay taxes or fund anything anymore and tell Congress they’re overreaching. That’s what I don’t get about libertarianism.  

posted by kizer permanente

I think they do address it for the most part. My contention was if libertarians want to limit the authority and not collect taxes to do so, what do we do then? 

Libertarians don't want to "limit authority". It's already limited by the constitution, which is being ignored in large measure. We want them to follow the rules.

Kizer, we have to realize that in a country of 300+ million people there are going to be 10's of millions of us that are going to disagree fundamentally with each other on certain issues.  These fundamental disagreements were constitutionally designed to be resolved at the state and local level of governance.  When either side seeks to impose its will using federal power on all 300+ 10's of millions are going to feel alienated.

I sitting here in rural Ohio have to realize and accept that people in urban San Francisco have different values and I should not advocate using federal power to force their compliance with my values nor should they mine unless an egregious violation of humanity is occurring.