2020 Presidential Election thread

I am not at all opposed of local governance. Cities can operate in a way that makes sense for the locals. Same with states. But a massive federal government calling the shots in a country like this will never make sense to me. It would be one thing if we had a homogeneous culture, but we definitely do not. 

People like to point to other countries like Sweden or wherever, saying if they can do it, we can do it. But when you compare population and culture it just doesn't make sense. Sweden has 10 million residents. That's smaller than Ohio.

posted by justincredible

I'd argue that doesn't matter in the slightest when it comes to the federal government. States have always had a large amount of sovereignty to run their affairs as they saw fit. Why should one city be calling the shots for a vast country made up of 400 million people with a large number of different cultures within it?

I’d argue though that it absolutely matters though when you don’t live in a small homogeneous society though.  The tenets of libertarianism seems to be small/no government. Person rights. And don’t tax me. So either we have to pretend poor people don’t exist and don’t need help, or private industry needs to take care of them. The issue with that is history shows humans exploit other humans, not help them.  

Well, I know locally our private business do a lot of work for the underprivileged. Like, a fuckton of work. My company alone has too many charitable connections to even begin to list. I tend to think humanity is good and getting better. People are generally good and will help out those that need it.

posted by justincredible

Well, I know locally our private business do a lot of work for the underprivileged. Like, a fuckton of work. My company alone has too many charitable connections to even begin to list. I tend to think humanity is good and getting better. People are generally good and will help out those that need it.

Yeah but they’ll also enslave people and make them work in terrible conditions if left unchecked too. That’s not people being generally good. I’m not sure we can really say people are generally good? 

posted by kizer permanente

Yeah but they’ll also enslave people and make them work in terrible conditions if left unchecked too.

And only a massive federal government can fix this. 

Did you not see my local governance post?

posted by justincredible

And only a massive federal government can fix this. 

Did you not see my local governance post?

I mean, typically for massive size countries. 

 Like you said, we’re not Sweden. And also, were the United States. No 50 different countries. I’m not sure how effective a small federal government would be over 50 different states with 400 mil people.  

posted by kizer permanente

I mean, typically for massive size countries. 

 Like you said, we’re not Sweden. And also, were the United States. No 50 different countries. I’m not sure how effective a small federal government would be over 50 different states with 400 mil people.  

Exactly. STATES. Plural. 

Given that we clearly have fundamental disagreements here I'm going to move on to more fruitful endeavors.

posted by justincredible

Exactly. STATES. Plural. 

Given that we clearly have fundamental disagreements here I'm going to move on to more fruitful endeavors.

posted by kizer permanente

No problem.  Thanks for trying to educate me on your view of Libertarianism. I only have 1 close libertarian friend and I don’t think he’s a true libertarian. He just doesn’t like being taxed. 

I appreciate the civility. I enjoy discussing with others, but at a certain point I tend to bow out. All of our good friends in Cincinnati are borderline socialists so it can be tough for my wife and I. 

posted by justincredible

I appreciate the civility. I enjoy discussing with others, but at a certain point I tend to bow out. All of our good friends in Cincinnati are borderline socialists so it can be tough for my wife and I. 

I mean... I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know everything. I admit on here all the time when I’m dumb and fucked up. Talking to people who don’t  think like you generally results in learning something new for me. 

posted by kizer permanente

I mean... I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know everything. I admit on here all the time when I’m dumb and fucked up. Talking to people who don’t  think like you generally results in learning something new for me. 

Exactly. No one can know everything. I can appreciate people who don't want to live in an echo chamber.

posted by kizer permanente

I’d argue though that it absolutely matters though when you don’t live in a small homogeneous society though.  The tenets of libertarianism seems to be small/no government. Person rights. And don’t tax me. So either we have to pretend poor people don’t exist and don’t need help, or private industry needs to take care of them. The issue with that is history shows humans exploit other humans, not help them.  

Historically the primary vehicle used to exploit other human beings has been the government.  Libertarians understand government is a necessary evil that needs to be kept limited, balanced, and as small as possible.

posted by majorspark

Historically the primary vehicle used to exploit other human beings has been the government.  Libertarians understand government is a necessary evil that needs to be kept limited, balanced, and as small as possible.

How so exactly ? 

posted by kizer permanente

It’s more than your rights though. It’s the actual country you live in. Is the benefits you experience by living here versus a third world country. And the quality of life you’re able to live bc you’re lucky enough to be here in a wealthy country an not somewhere else. 

Trust me I realize the blessings that I have being born in this country.  I also do not feel any personal guilt about it.  Nor about things that happened centuries ago.

posted by majorspark

Trust me I realize the blessings that I have being born in this country.  I also do not feel any personal guilt about it.  Nor about things that happened centuries ago.

Why would you feel guilt? 

 I think you should recognize a lot of what you enjoy wouldn’t be done without taxing people. 

posted by kizer permanente

How so exactly ? 

Well to start the greatest right we all have is the right to life itself.  Historically governments have been the vehicles to extinguish that right on a mass scale.

posted by kizer permanente

Why would you feel guilt? 

 I think you should recognize a lot of what you enjoy wouldn’t be done without taxing people. 

I am not against all taxes.  Just certain ones.

posted by majorspark

Well to start the greatest right we all have is the right to life itself.  Historically governments have been the vehicles to extinguish that right on a mass scale.

You just pivoted from exploiting people back to rights? 

posted by kizer permanente

I’d argue though that it absolutely matters though when you don’t live in a small homogeneous society though.  The tenets of libertarianism seems to be small/no government. Person rights. And don’t tax me. So either we have to pretend poor people don’t exist and don’t need help, or private industry needs to take care of them. The issue with that is history shows humans exploit other humans, not help them.  

Another issue is if you want a nation of laws, there is no provision in the constitution for taking from the rich to give to the poor. Taxes are intended to finance those things specifically enumerated by the constitution as legitimate roles of our federal government. Nothing else.

posted by kizer permanente

You just pivoted from exploiting people back to rights? 

You have heard of war right?  And in this country you can be compelled to fight in one.  I think you are misunderstanding.