Israel-Palestine

Mosques sit on top on the Temple Mount.  One party was there before the other.  Where do you draw the line?  Populations lands have shifted control since the beginning.  Mostly by force of arms.  How does this puzzle get put back together?

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Jews are thriving in the world - primarily in the USA where they are a huge and important part of our society.  There was no justification in forcing Israel onto the map.  And no, without US funding and support, Israel would never have survived.

Force people from their homes into a confined shithole…guys like Hamas happen.  There’s no mystery to it.  Sad for the hostages and sad for the TENS OF THOUSANDS of innocent Gazans revenge murdered.

People get forced from their homes and thrive.  The Jews being one of them.  Promotes a lot of jealousy around the world.  How about Taiwan?  They are happy if China just pisses off and leaves them be.  And without US funding Taiwan would not survive.   

Look at Singapore.  Occupied by many foreign powers.  A lot of people crammed into a small what was at times a shithole.  Tens of thousands of innocents died.  Yet today a great place.  Gaza could have been as well.  Difference is the government.

posted by majorspark

Sometimes a hammer is the solution.  

As for the Palestinian point of view Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza and got a chance to turn it into an example, a beacon, a place for tourism, foreign investment pouring in.  Instead they robbed their people and turned it into a shithole.  A base for warfare.

Show me a modern example where a hammer solved the issue? 

On your second point, that justifies thousands dead to you then? 

posted by majorspark

Mosques sit on top on the Temple Mount.  One party was there before the other.  Where do you draw the line?  Populations lands have shifted control since the beginning.  Mostly by force of arms.  How does this puzzle get put back together?

One state that is how. 

But, neither side wants that as it would mean hard questions about what that state would mean. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Show me a modern example where a hammer solved the issue? 

On your second point, that justifies thousands dead to you then? 

Imperial Japan.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

One state that is how. 

But, neither side wants that as it would mean hard questions about what that state would mean. 

Ok.  But no side wants it so there is war.

posted by majorspark

Imperial Japan.

Any more recent? That's a completely different time.

posted by majorspark

Ok.  But no side wants it so there is war.

Yup, because no one wants peace. Israel does not want a Palestinian state. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

On your second point, that justifies thousands dead to you then? 

How many were actually innocent civilians? Thousand of terrorists dead isn’t really an issue. Sure there were obviously civilian casualties, but you’re never going to get a real number. If Mexico came into America and took 100 Americans hostage back to Mexico, I wouldn’t bat an eye at whatever casualties it takes to get them back. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Any more recent? That's a completely different time.

2nd Chechnya war.  The bad guys won.  Now they are barrier troops in the war in Europe and their leader would be happy to eat borscht out of Putins's toilet. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Yup, because no one wants peace. Israel does not want a Palestinian state. 

Hamas has refused to say it would recognize or end its fight with Israel.  A poll about a year ago showed only 24% of Palestinians support a two-state solution.  So does it really make sense to you for Israel to accept a two-state solution?

Also, do you really think Hamas is there against the Palestinian's will?  In the old days, you had the PLO.  Now you have Hamas.  But you're telling me the Palestinian people are blameless and Israel is the aggressor?

Sorry, but providing aid and comfort to the enemy doesn't make one an innocent civilian.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Show me a modern example where a hammer solved the issue? 

On your second point, that justifies thousands dead to you then? 

I answered the diversion.  Now you tell me did the leaders of Gaza squander an opportunity for prosperity and instead make it a base for warfare.  Do they seek to protect their civilians or put them in harms way?  Do they justify the deaths of their own civilians for what they believe is  gaining world sympathy?

posted by majorspark

People get forced from their homes and thrive.  The Jews being one of them.  Promotes a lot of jealousy around the world.  How about Taiwan?  They are happy if China just pisses off and leaves them be.  And without US funding Taiwan would not survive.   

Look at Singapore.  Occupied by many foreign powers.  A lot of people crammed into a small what was at times a shithole.  Tens of thousands of innocents died.  Yet today a great place.  Gaza could have been as well.  Difference is the government.

Most bad things have happened at one time in the history of mankind.  It doesn’t make it right and it doesn’t mean we have to be aparty to it.  We pay a steep, steep price for our unconditionally support of Israel.  There is no other ally that gets the amount of money and arms with virtually no scrutiny.  We pay for it over and over again.  And for what?

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Most bad things have happened at one time in the history of mankind.  It doesn’t make it right and it doesn’t mean we have to be aparty to it.  We pay a steep, steep price for our unconditionally support of Israel.  There is no other ally that gets the amount of money and arms with virtually no scrutiny.  We pay for it over and over again.  And for what?

This steep, steep price we pay what is it?  Money?  The twin towers?  Look the world is ruled by the aggressive use of force.  Economic and militarily.  Until that ends you have to be a party to it.

We are in a large military alliance.  These allies get far more support. By order of treaty and you know this.  Should we leave it?

As for the war in Europe civilian and military casualties are higher than any current conflict. Cities razed to the ground.  But Isreal. 

posted by iclfan2

How many were actually innocent civilians? Thousand of terrorists dead isn’t really an issue. Sure there were obviously civilian casualties, but you’re never going to get a real number. If Mexico came into America and took 100 Americans hostage back to Mexico, I wouldn’t bat an eye at whatever casualties it takes to get them back. 

I mean not all nearly 40k are terrorists. The photos and stories of women and children dead are not terrorists.

It also doesn't matter as the last 20+ years show thet any civilian deaths do more harm than good. See Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc. 

posted by majorspark

2nd Chechnya war.  The bad guys won.  Now they are barrier troops in the war in Europe and their leader would be happy to eat borscht out of Putins's toilet. 

Ok. I counter force failed in Iraq and Afghanistan and Israel is failing to take any lessons from those wars.

posted by gut

Hamas has refused to say it would recognize or end its fight with Israel.  A poll about a year ago showed only 24% of Palestinians support a two-state solution.  So does it really make sense to you for Israel to accept a two-state solution?

Also, do you really think Hamas is there against the Palestinian's will?  In the old days, you had the PLO.  Now you have Hamas.  But you're telling me the Palestinian people are blameless and Israel is the aggressor?

Sorry, but providing aid and comfort to the enemy doesn't make one an innocent civilian.

Not saying that at all. Both sides do not want peace. Both are perfectly happy to continue the war and violence. 

posted by majorspark

I answered the diversion.  Now you tell me did the leaders of Gaza squander an opportunity for prosperity and instead make it a base for warfare.  Do they seek to protect their civilians or put them in harms way?  Do they justify the deaths of their own civilians for what they believe is  gaining world sympathy?

Oh, sure I agree somewhat. Hamas is using civilians as shields. 

However, Israel needs to do more to avoid the civilian casualties. 

Again, conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq the last 20 years have shown civilian seats do more harm than good. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Oh, sure I agree somewhat. Hamas is using civilians as shields. 

However, Israel needs to do more to avoid the civilian casualties. 

Again, conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq the last 20 years have shown civilian seats do more harm than good. 

Sorry ptown, but trying to equate both sides here is a non-starter. Israel isn’t 100% innocent but it is like 90/10 on who’s at fault here. 

And Israel has offered a 2 state solution a number of times which has been rejected by Palestine every time.

So after being told no many times do you fault Israel for finally also saying no?

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Not saying that at all. Both sides do not want peace. Both are perfectly happy to continue the war and violence. 

I don't think that is 100% accurate.  But knowing that Hamas/Palestine don't want peace, wouldn't Israel be stupid to agree to the 2-state solution?

Why would Israel agree to any "peace" they can be 100% certain Hamas and Palestine won't abide by?

If you want to point a finger, point it at the side that's actually aiding and abetting TERRORISTS.

Also, to say "Israel does not want peace" is a bullshit and ignorant left wing talking point.  Why wouldn't they want peace, if it was a real offer?  They have their homes, and I'm sure would be more than happy to keep their homes and live in safety.  That's not acceptable to Palestine and Hamas.  So what you're claiming "Israel doesn't want" isn't actually an offer on the table for them to reject, anyway.