BoatShoes;1597055 wrote:^^^And hence the whole reason people contract together to form unions and bargain together in the first place.

A reason, not the whole reason.

Meanwhile, at a top university like NOrth Carolina, an athleet wroted this paper and gots and A- on it.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/check-out-the-terrible-paper-that-earned-a-player-an-a--at-north-carolina-151005969.html

thavoice;1597059 wrote:Meanwhile, at a top university like NOrth Carolina, an athleet wroted this paper and gots and A- on it.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/check-out-the-terrible-paper-that-earned-a-player-an-a--at-north-carolina-151005969.html

As much as it provides emphasis to my position on the current college system, it also begs the question of how this person got a high school diploma.

queencitybuckeye;1597053 wrote:It doesn't. Capacity at many schools is largely finite. If they give an athlete a tuition waiver, it means they are giving up that amount in revenue to the university. They must feel that the athlete's attendance has a value at least equal to the revenue foregone.

Thanks for the enlightenment, your pretentious asshole.

I wasn't using enlighten in the douche way, I was trying to explain how it works, since I can assume you've never worked in an athletic department based on your post. Guess trying to make you more educated on a topic makes me pretentious. Whatevs

You're right about the University incurring opportunity cost of the waiver, but the university has the resources to internalize it. If you start making the tuition come from athletic department, like I pointed out, there won't be any economic reason, nor feasibility within the budget, to pay non-revenue athletes.

Caveat: You'd be 100% right if the University covered every single cost and every single expense in every department (paying for everything associated with the University), but since each department has to partially raise their own funds, the above situation occurs.

HitsRus;1597052 wrote: .
Unionizing...and all that goes with it probably is not in anyone's interest. But this is probably necessary to grab enough attention to impress upon some people and make them finally realize that the system needs a radical overhaul.

Exactly

HitsRus;1597052 wrote:Unionizing...and all that goes with it probably is not in anyone's interest. But this is probably necessary to grab enough attention to impress upon some people and make them finally realize that the system needs a radical overhaul.

yeah and that's going to be the athletes being able to make money from their work. To me this is the official commencement of that goal

^^^The NCAA has brought this upon themselves. They used to be...and they need to get back to... being an advocate for the student athletes and student athletics. But for the past 30 years they have evolved into a giant cash cow with everybody getting a piece of the pie and the student athletes just getting screwed.

Take the case of Ohio State wideout Devier Posey.....what they did to him was criminal, and I'm surprised they didn't get sued right then and there. The case illustrates the unchecked power that the NCAA wields and the coercion and abuse it heaps on its forced membership. Posey was suspended for 5 games for selling what amounted to (anybody but the NCAA's definition)... his own stuff. A grand total of $700. The NCAA heaped another 5 games for less than $300 of undocumented pay. Posey was suspended almost his entire senior season for what amounts to 'spending money'. Further Ohio State and Posey (under the urging of Ohio State under the threat of even greater sanctions) could only quietly complain and was coerced to accept this travesty. Despite missing almost all of his senior season, Posey was drafted # 68 in the NFL draft., leaving one to wonder where he might have been drafted had he been allowed to play and showcase his skills his senior year. How much money did this cost him???

This is an organization that needs to be slapped down and slapped down hard until it gets back to its original purpose.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7073025/ncaa-suspends-ohio-state-buckeyes-devier-posey-five-more-games

Unions killed American industry and it will kill college athletics if this is allowed to take off.

ccrunner609;1597143 wrote:Just give all athletes their 4 years of tuition in cash, They can either blow it, pay the university back in any amount up to the full scholorship and if they fail to gradutate they owe them the full amount.

Wouldn't work. Private school students would get quadruple their public school counterparts.

They'll blow it.^^^ You talking 18, 19, 20 year old kids.

ccrunner609;1597220 wrote:thats on them. They dont get paid but they arent paying for college either. I paid 11 years worth of school loans and they get a free education to play a game.

Now I do agree that these universities are making millions on their backs. Maybe they pay them something upon graduation. They dont get anything until they finish.

Why not? You don't just get to call an employee a "student athlete" because you don't want to pay them. The same way that it's illegal to take a revenue generating position and call it an internship in an attempt to get free labor. If you're generating revenue from the work of someone in your organization you must compensate them.

Also it's stupid that our non-profit school system operates what are in reality profitable professional sports businesses.

Just skimmed through the thread, but I think I am in full agreement with Tiernan and Lhslep.

You're either extremely naive, very ill-informed, or have never really thought it through if you think a mass overhaul is in any way, shape, or form feasible. It would be the death of the majority of college athletics as we know it.

I Wear Pants;1597245 wrote:Why not? You don't just get to call an employee a "student athlete" because you don't want to pay them. The same way that it's illegal to take a revenue generating position and call it an internship in an attempt to get free labor. If you're generating revenue from the work of someone in your organization you must compensate them.

Also it's stupid that our non-profit school system operates what are in reality profitable professional sports businesses.

What about high school sports? Should we pay high school players?

Tiernan;1597144 wrote:Unions killed American industry and it will kill college athletics if this is allowed to take off.

Haha so you're not a fan of any pro sports then?

sleeper;1597254 wrote:What about high school sports? Should we pay high school players?

No. High schoolers don't live in dorms

Classyposter58;1597259 wrote:No. High schoolers don't live in dorms

Poor reasoning, but you're still wrong.
http://www.linsly.org/Page/Student-Life/Boarding-Life

It would be the death of the majority of college athletics as we know it.

Yep...and it's coming because there is too much money at play being directed arbitrarily by people with no accountability. I expect appeals all the way to the SCOTUS...and I expect the NCAA to lose because they have used and abused and killed the goose that layed the golden egg.

Classyposter58;1597258 wrote:Haha so you're not a fan of any pro sports then?

Not really...I'd miss the NFL and a little bit of MLB...but the NHL and NGBA could end tonight and I'd never give another thought about it. And yeah the players associations in all those sports have made them shittier leagues.

lhslep134;1597047 wrote:They can't (get a return on investment). There's a reason those are called "non-revenue" sports. If all student-athletes were treated as employees you would only have football and men's basketball. All other sports would be offered as a club. There's simply too much money spent on the non-revenue sports to make them worth continuing as a varsity sport.

They do get a return on investment. It's called "future benefactors." Just because the sports are "non-revenue" doesn't mean the sport doesn't benefit the institution in the long run (heck, or short run). Frick, for most of NCAA DI, football and basketball are non-revenue too since they cost the school money -- they are a huge burden to many athletic budgets.

I Wear Pants;1597245 wrote:Why not? You don't just get to call an employee a "student athlete" because you don't want to pay them. The same way that it's illegal to take a revenue generating position and call it an internship in an attempt to get free labor. If you're generating revenue from the work of someone in your organization you must compensate them.

Also it's stupid that our non-profit school system operates what are in reality profitable professional sports businesses.

Last time I checked, everyone that works in a capitalistic system doesn't get compensated for the revenue of the organization. Every employee of every organization is essentially helping the organization generate revenue -- even down to the trash guy. When an admissions counselor at a school goes above his/her required student enrollment, he/she doesn't get a boost in pay even though they've helped the organization.

Also, non-profit schools are not "profitable professional sports businesses." There's not one single person in the non-profit that makes the money off the system. There are many people who benefit from the college athletic realm -- several schools give millions back to the general student body for scholarships. Most of the time, the schools build their facilities with their own monies (whether that is private gifts, or already state allocated funding); professional sports businesses continue to add tax after tax in order for these multibillionaire owners to continue gouging the general public. Big difference in how each operates there.

Pick6;1597252 wrote:You're either extremely naive, very ill-informed, or have never really thought it through if you think a mass overhaul is in any way, shape, or form feasible. It would be the death of the majority of college athletics as we know it.

I think a mass overhaul would be easier than you may think. It would require the NCAA actually doing something. It doesn't take much. They could even structure the "pay" like Olympic athletes get. They could also restrict spending by athletic departments -- that's ultimately where the issue starts. The more schools spend and spend, the arms race is out of hand. This is where the NCAA essentially started their rules and regulations ridiculousness anyway. People complained about "fairness" and "overspending" in regards to scholarships and such...so we restrict scholarships. Why not starting to restrict spending? Don't allow DI schools to spend $290,000 per year PER PLAYER! Don't allow schools to have $80,000 equipment budgets on sports that don't need it (for 25ish players and minimal gear).

And really, much of this money and budgeting could be easily curbed if the NCAA would regulate conferences. Make them regional -- like they have been. Don't allow the WVU's to play in a conference with Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Iowa schools. Don't allow the Rutger's to be in a conference with Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, and Illinois schools. Don't allow the Northern Kentucky's to play in a conference with two schools in Florida!

We are a few years away from seeing the NCAA DI schools to move away from NCAA anyway. They know how much money they are losing out on and will want to keep it. They understand they can be better managers and administrators than what the NCAA is. College athletics will be seeing a major overhaul in some way or another soon -- some due to this decision (if upheld) and some due to a variety of others.

If they get paid to play, will they be allowed to change schools yearly or even mid year if they get an offer from another school? What about trades?

SMH . You guys are all hung up on what it would do to the 'rules'...whether or not we'll have to start playing high school players (LOL)....and how this is just going to ruin March madness or your ability to watch Ohio State 12 Saturdays or more a year.

The point here is that organizations like the NCAA NFL, MLB etc etc. are exempted to operate on rules that are different than what the rest of us have to follow, because they are unique in nature, and their operation provides a public good, and operates with fairness and approval of all they affect. When that changes and their operation no longer falls within those parameters, the government steps in and makes them operate in accordance with the rules and laws that the rest of us have to follow.
The NCAA has become a huge cash generating machine that no longer operates fairly to all parties...i.e. specifically the student athletes that are paid a scholarship...but are restricted in their ability to move, limited in choices where they can play, and punished unfairly by an arbitrary set of uncodified laws that have burgeoned over the past 30 years. Players personal property, images , likenesses are exploited without compensation, while players can't even sell their own pants, jerseys for spending money.

at minimum if they arent going to pay them should remove the restrictions on them being able to earn money on their own. i.e. starting a t-shirt company or signing autographs

at minimum if they arent going to pay them should remove the restrictions on them being able to earn money on their own. i.e. starting a t-shirt company or signing autographs

That's a start. You don't need to actually play the players and bust the athletic budget...you simply need to remove restrictions that make it unfair. A player could and should be allowed to make money on their celebrity that the NCAA exploits. A common sense limit on that can be applied...but it should NOT be ZERO and violation punishments need to be codified and evenly enforced.

Gblock;1597321 wrote:at minimum if they arent going to pay them should remove the restrictions on them being able to earn money on their own. i.e. starting a t-shirt company or signing autographs

You can't do this. There is a reason these rules are in place. Too many cheaters.

Mr. Booster comes to the athlete and agrees to buy his shirt for $100k if he goes to school there.

HitsRus;1597325 wrote:That's a start. You don't need to actually play the players and bust the athletic budget...you simply need to remove restrictions that make it unfair. A player could and should be allowed to make money on their celebrity that the NCAA exploits. A common sense limit on that can be applied...but it should NOT be ZERO and violation punishments need to be codified and evenly enforced.

It would still have to be really limited, and controlled by some organization, if not the NCAA.