I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 4:10pm
It is a personal choice.
When I see someone who is greedy, selfish or bigoted, I try to point it out to them, in the hope they will consider changing for the better.
If I were more of a pessimist and I observed these people openly showing these characteristics, it would either be depressing or cynically amusing.
When I see someone who is greedy, selfish or bigoted, I try to point it out to them, in the hope they will consider changing for the better.
If I were more of a pessimist and I observed these people openly showing these characteristics, it would either be depressing or cynically amusing.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 27, 2012 4:42pm
isadore, there is still time for your redemption.isadore;1213239 wrote:It is a personal choice.
When I see someone who is greedy, selfish or bigoted, I try to point it out to them, in the hope they will consider changing for the better.
If I were more of a pessimist and I observed these people openly showing these characteristics, it would either be depressing or cynically amusing.
C
Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 27, 2012 5:09pm
I would agree and that was part of my first comment. Without the choice nothing will happen even if hope form another is present.isadore;1213215 wrote:it begins with individual choices and then move toward a more communal hope for the effort toward redemption.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jun 27, 2012 5:11pm
No dispute from me, but as we were dabbling in the area of "ought-ness" or obligation (by saying "should"), I questioned whether this is a topic to which such "ought-ness" can even be ascribed. That's all.isadore;1213239 wrote:It is a personal choice.
When I see someone who is greedy, selfish or bigoted, I try to point it out to them, in the hope they will consider changing for the better.
If I were more of a pessimist and I observed these people openly showing these characteristics, it would either be depressing or cynically amusing.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 5:39pm
gosh a ruddies I am already a nice person, could be a little better, but already nice.sleeper;1213280 wrote:isadore, there is still time for your redemption.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 5:42pm
you don't think the hopefulness of others, that small contribution to a positive environment an aid.Con_Alma;1213303 wrote:I would agree and that was part of my first comment. Without the choice nothing will happen even if hope form another is present.
C
Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 27, 2012 5:46pm
Lol. no I don't.isadore;1213364 wrote:you don't think the hopefulness of others, that small contribution to a positive environment an aid.
I have stated several times....hope doesn't create the change, the choice of the individual does.
It's my observation on here that your "hope" is doing the exact opposite to those you express "hope" for. It isn't lending to a positive environment but rather is stirring an opposition to your wishful desires for them. I come to that conclusion by nature of the comments and threads directed towards you.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 5:51pm
“oughtness” interesting term. As an optimist I believe people are redeemable. If a person has that view of mankind he\she ought to try to aid in redemptions.O-Trap;1213305 wrote:No dispute from me, but as we were dabbling in the area of "ought-ness" or obligation (by saying "should"), I questioned whether this is a topic to which such "ought-ness" can even be ascribed. That's all.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 6:03pm
Not every attempt to show the error of people’s ways and offer the hope of redemption will have success.Con_Alma;1213371 wrote:Lol. no I don't.
I have stated several times....hope doesn't create the change, the choice of the individual does.
It's my observation on here that your "hope" is doing the exact opposite to those you express "hope" for. It isn't lending to a positive environment but rather is stirring an opposition to your wishful desires for them. I come to that conclusion by nature of the comments and threads directed towards you.
Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.
Someone has to go among the most seemingly reprehensible reprobates and offer the truth and the hope of redemption. That is my small mission. When offering hope to those so twisted, quick positive feedback is not expected.
But as an optimist there is always very long range hope.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jun 27, 2012 6:06pm
Why, though?isadore;1213378 wrote:“oughtness” interesting term. As an optimist I believe people are redeemable. If a person has that view of mankind he\she ought to try to aid in redemptions.
I may believe people are redeemable, but inasmuch as that were true, what is the connection between a person BEING redeemable, in and of himself or herself, and my ability to aid in redemption? Perhaps they are redeemable, but I am powerless to redeem anyone but myself.
Moreover, why is it perceived as the "good" thing to want redemption for others? What is it that makes it good?
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 6:18pm
Part of this could be definition. When I talk about someone being redeemable, it is not strictly a religious statement but the idea that a person can find the “good.” Away from selfish, greed, bigotry and other “bad” personal characteristics. I think a society where those characteristics are in decline would be a “good” society and one which we should work toward. By pointing out those characteristics and discussing redemption we can be helping others to be “redeemed.”O-Trap;1213392 wrote:Why, though?
I may believe people are redeemable, but inasmuch as that were true, what is the connection between a person BEING redeemable, in and of himself or herself, and my ability to aid in redemption? Perhaps they are redeemable, but I am powerless to redeem anyone but myself.
Moreover, why is it perceived as the "good" thing to want redemption for others? What is it that makes it good?
Devils Advocate
Posts: 4,539
Jun 27, 2012 6:27pm
are Muslims redeemable?isadore;1213399 wrote:Part of this could be definition. When I talk about someone being redeemable, it is not strictly a religious statement but the idea that a person can find the “good.” Away from selfish, greed, bigotry and other “bad” personal characteristics. I think a society where those characteristics are in decline would be a “good” society and one which we should work toward. By pointing out those characteristics and discussing redemption we can be helping others to be “redeemed.”
DeyDurkie5
Posts: 11,324
Jun 27, 2012 6:29pm
What if no one wants your wisdom?isadore;1213239 wrote:It is a personal choice.
When I see someone who is greedy, selfish or bigoted, I try to point it out to them, in the hope they will consider changing for the better.
If I were more of a pessimist and I observed these people openly showing these characteristics, it would either be depressing or cynically amusing.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 6:35pm
when they understand the biography of the Prophet and reject the more violent and immoral parts of itDevils Advocate;1213405 wrote:are Muslims redeemable?
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 6:40pm
It would be selfish of me not to continue to offer the possibility of redemption.DeyDurkie5;1213408 wrote:What if no one wants your wisdom?
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 27, 2012 6:50pm
And yet there is still hope for redemption.isadore;1213357 wrote:gosh a ruddies I am already a nice person, could be a little better, but already nice.
C
Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 27, 2012 7:29pm
Hope does not light the candle in this case. There's evidence it is having the opposite effect.isadore;1213389 wrote:Not every attempt to show the error of people’s ways and offer the hope of redemption will have success.
Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.
Someone has to go among the most seemingly reprehensible reprobates and offer the truth and the hope of redemption. That is my small mission. When offering hope to those so twisted, quick positive feedback is not expected.
But as an optimist there is always very long range hope.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 7:49pm
yes there is for you,sleeper;1213416 wrote:And yet there is still hope for redemption.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 7:52pm
For those buried so deep in selfishness, greed an bigotry, the road to the light can be long and tortuous. It must begin with them being told the real truth about who they are.Con_Alma;1213446 wrote:Hope does not light the candle in this case. There's evidence it is having the opposite effect.
C
Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 27, 2012 7:54pm
You just don't get it. They already know...and your hope is amplifying their desire to continue.isadore;1213458 wrote:For those buried so deep in selfishness, greed an bigotry, the road to the light can be long and tortuous. It must begin with them being told the real truth about who they are.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 8:06pm
they know snarkiness, surface cynicism, greed and selfishness worked into an ideology, bigotry disguised as supposed humor all supported by a cliquish fake comraderie. Efforts at the truth will of course arouse an extreme reaction from the deluded. But as the truth is repeated again and again there will in the long run incremental movement toward redemptionCon_Alma;1213459 wrote:You just don't get it. They already know...and your hope is amplifying their desire to continue.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jun 27, 2012 8:55pm
Not that I disagree, but by what do you establish those things which are "good" and "bad," differentiating between the redeemable and the redeemed?isadore;1213399 wrote:Part of this could be definition. When I talk about someone being redeemable, it is not strictly a religious statement but the idea that a person can find the “good.” Away from selfish, greed, bigotry and other “bad” personal characteristics. I think a society where those characteristics are in decline would be a “good” society and one which we should work toward. By pointing out those characteristics and discussing redemption we can be helping others to be “redeemed.”
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 27, 2012 9:16pm
An examination of theology, philosophy, history and intuition frrom the Seven Deadly Sins to the effects of bigotry on human history.O-Trap;1213498 wrote:Not that I disagree, but by what do you establish those things which are "good" and "bad," differentiating between the redeemable and the redeemed?
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jun 27, 2012 9:20pm
Though vaguely put, that does lend something to it.isadore;1213512 wrote:An examination of theology, philosophy, history and intuition frrom the Seven Deadly Sins to the effects of bigotry on human history.
C
Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 27, 2012 9:23pm
This is the hope that is proving to be false hope.isadore wrote:... But as the truth is repeated again and again there will in the long run incremental movement toward redemption