Progressives, part 3...

posted by jmog

I don't disagree with that, and neither does she. She admits she was a liberal and finally "woke up". Ronald Reagan was the same, was a democrat and switch when he realized things weren't right with the democratic party.

 

Shoot, my grandpa who just passed away last year at 86 years old. He voted democrat his whole life until just the last 2 POTUS elections, his own words were "they aren't about freedom of speech and helping the working people anymore, they are all about socialism and calling people who aren't with them racists".

 

So yes, people switch, that wasn't my point. My point was that she switched well before Turning Point. By asserting that she switched sides just for money is a little presumptuous. Do you believe Reagan switched sides for money? Power? Or can people switch sides just because they gain new information and change their minds?

 

I used to think libertarians were loons, then I actually read more information on them when Ron Paul actually made the most sense in the RNC debates. Once I looked into them I realized I was wrong and fell in line more with the libertarian view point than the Republican.

 

 

I think she’s being used and switched for money. That’s my opinion doesn’t mean it’s right. I don’t like her because I think her page is just gop talking points. Immigrant commits murder.. she will tweet all day. Neonatzi  shoots up somplace. Silence. If you want to be taken seriously then be a serious person in my opinion don’t just spew the same rhetoric I can find on brietbart. 

posted by geeblock

I think she’s being used and switched for money. That’s my opinion doesn’t mean it’s right. I don’t like her because I think her page is just gop talking points. Immigrant commits murder.. she will tweet all day. Neonatzi  shoots up somplace. Silence. If you want to be taken seriously then be a serious person in my opinion don’t just spew the same rhetoric I can find on brietbart. 

Oh she very well maybe being used for money, that doesn't mean she switched "sides" for money like your original post suggested. She may have genuinely switched parties and then the TP folks picked her up to make money. I am not denying that possibility at all. 

posted by O-Trap

But I mean, suppose for example that you had come to the conclusion that most assistance programs were not an overall net benefit for those they're meant to help (maybe you think they perpetuate the generational reliance on them), and so you opposed many of them.  How comfortable would you feel expressing that to other POC?  Suppose you looked at the schools who have gotten more funding over the years and really haven't demonstrated any palpable improvement as a result of it, so you began to oppose those.  Do you think that conviction would be at least able to be discussed with POC, or would you be concerned that you'd immediately be labeled and written off as being something less than a real POC (No True Scotsman)?

Listen, I'm as WASP as they come.  I'm white.  My primary background is Welsh.  I'm Protestant.  I'm cis.  I'm straight.  I have no frame of reference for worrying about being treated in this manner.

But I live in a school system much like the one I described, where the money given to the local school district has risen for decades (and has outpaced inflation, in case that's a concern), and yet, it really hasn't resulted in any improvements. The public school system is still academically failing with an absurdly high truancy rate and cases of violence that are notably higher than the average for public schools in my state.  I have a vested interest in the education of my kids and of the people around me, and yet I don't see any statistical, or even any anecdotal, evidence that the increase in funding has improved anything.  As such, beyond any philosophical objections, I oppose most increases to public school spending on practical grounds, as well.

Were I a POC, would I be able to discuss that position publicly without being ostracized and written off?

I think you can have all those positions and have all those discussions without being seen as racist because look at how you did it. With respect and reasoning as to why you feel that way. Those are all great topics to discuss with many layers. It’s actually easier than you think to not look racist. The reason Obama was able to do things on immigration without controversy was not because he was black, it was because he was respectful. Notice u didn’t have to use terms like “woke” or Paint poor people or inner city folk as lazy, or terrorists or criminals. You look at it and say hey money doesn’t seem to solve this problem, what will. It’s pretty easy and you always do a great job on your posts whether you agree or disa

posted by jmog

Why are they labeled as betraying their "race" by coming to a different conclusion/viewpoint?

When you get people passionate/outraged over a single issue, they become blind to all other issues.  That's everything behind the identity politics ploy.

AOC's handlers (because, let's face it, she doesn't come up with this on her own) comparing border detention centers to concentration camps was not an accident.  Calling Repubs nazi's and fascist is not an accident.  It's intended to make the GOP so appalling that Jewish people won't be able to vote for them.

As I've said before, that's what really pisses them off about Trump.  He plays the game as well as Dems do....and Repubs aren't allowed to play that game.

posted by geeblock

I think you can have all those positions and have all those discussions without being seen as racist because look at how you did it. With respect and reasoning as to why you feel that way. Those are all great topics to discuss with many layers. It’s actually easier than you think to not look racist. The reason Obama was able to do things on immigration without controversy was not because he was black, it was because he was respectful. Notice u didn’t have to use terms like “woke” or Paint poor people or inner city folk as lazy, or terrorists or criminals. You look at it and say hey money doesn’t seem to solve this problem, what will. It’s pretty easy and you always do a great job on your posts whether you agree or disa

His original question was why do African-Americans get labeled as "Uncle Toms" when they change their views and start to backup republican ideas or candidates. They even get labeled as betraying their race. That was O-Trap's original question. 

posted by geeblock

I think you can have all those positions and have all those discussions without being seen as racist because look at how you did it. With respect and reasoning as to why you feel that way. Those are all great topics to discuss with many layers. It’s actually easier than you think to not look racist. The reason Obama was able to do things on immigration without controversy was not because he was black, it was because he was respectful. Notice u didn’t have to use terms like “woke” or Paint poor people or inner city folk as lazy, or terrorists or criminals. You look at it and say hey money doesn’t seem to solve this problem, what will. It’s pretty easy and you always do a great job on your posts whether you agree or disa

So two people can have the same actions, one of them talks well the other is a jerk, that makes one racist and the other not? I know I way over simplified your post but that's essentially why you are saying Obama "got a pass" on having basically the same policies as Trump with regards to the southern border because he was "respectful".

I fully believe that he got a pass because the liberal media will give a pass to any democrat to begin with, but they for SURE weren't going to come down hard on the first African-American candidate. He got a pass mostly because he was a democrat, but partly because he spoke well and partly because he was African-American.

You would have to give me a specific person to answer that because I don’t think it’s universally true. I also should say that these are just my opinions. My situation is unique with my ethnicity and where I grew up so I often have had just as hard of s time fitting in with black people as white people. But I think I’m my mind these are case by case basis.  People still love tiger woods and Michael Jordan for example. I think everyone can agree Ben Carson is just a very awkward weird dude that no one really likes 

posted by geeblock

You would have to give me a specific person to answer that because I don’t think it’s universally true. I also should say that these are just my opinions. My situation is unique with my ethnicity and where I grew up so I often have had just as hard of s time fitting in with black people as white people. But I think I’m my mind these are case by case basis.  People still love tiger woods and Michael Jordan for example. I think everyone can agree Ben Carson is just a very awkward weird dude that no one really likes 

1. Condolezza Rice

2. Ben Carson

3. Allen West

4. Herman Cain

5. Collin Powell

6. 50 Cent

7. Kanye West

8. Stacey Dash

9. Thomas Sowell

10. Michael Steele

I mean I can keep going, but you name a black conservative that is even a little bit in the limelight and they have been called an "Uncle Tom". 

It may not be "universally true" but it darn near is universally true.

I also have no idea how you could say "no one really likes" Ben Carson. He is one of the smartest most soft spoken and talented person on this planet. He is humble and treats everyone with respect...yeah, he's "weird and we don't like him"?

One can disagree with some of his views, but to not "like" Ben Carson is extremely odd given his talents and demeanor towards people.

I don’t know a lot of those in the list. I never heard of 50 cent catching any heat. Condeleeza rice and Colin Powell are well respected as far as I’ve ever known. Kanye said George bush doesn’t care about black people so supporting trump was weird. I also think we have to separate pre-trump/post trump before having that convo. I know some people in that list caught heat for being completely silent for 8 years of Obama but honestly don’t know much about them or who they are.

stacy dash is a no for me tho 

I think the people you mentioned and the fact I don’t know who they are means they really don’t have a connection or get the respect from the black community, so when they join up with the gop I can see why people call them uncle toms in some cases 

Ben Carson is very accomplished I’m the medical field. I’m not sure he’s qualified to be in housing or whatever he’s doing now. He looks out of his element the times I’ve seen him 

Ben Carson is the perfect example of identity politics are easy stronger then race.  He is 100% considered an uncle tom by the black community because he isnt a democrat.  In reality he does way more for minorities in his position then Sharpton and Jackson will ever do.

posted by Spock

Ben Carson is the perfect example of identity politics are easy stronger then race.  He is 100% considered an uncle tom by the black community because he isnt a democrat.  In reality he does way more for minorities in his position then Sharpton and Jackson will ever do.

Like what?

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/african-american-home-ownership-fallen-record-low

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/real-estate/affordable-housing-project-detroits-oakman-boulevard-neighborhood-completed

Carson and HUD does a lot for minority communities and my bet is that as a black man he does even more

posted by Spock

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/african-american-home-ownership-fallen-record-low

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/real-estate/affordable-housing-project-detroits-oakman-boulevard-neighborhood-completed

Carson and HUD does a lot for minority communities and my bet is that as a black man he does even more

He also cut 16.4 percent from the hud budget which makes these two initiatives look like peanuts. Also the time he had no idea what REO’s were and thought they were talking about cookies. I think Ben Carson is a nice guy but he’s clearly being used 

posted by geeblock

Ben Carson is very accomplished I’m the medical field. I’m not sure he’s qualified to be in housing or whatever he’s doing now. He looks out of his element the times I’ve seen him 

Ben Carson has separated conjoined twins.  That takes a tremendous amount of intelligence and dexterity.  As surgeons age they lose like all of us some of their physical abilities but not their mental capacity.

He could have retired in peace as an honorable man and maybe did something in the medical field.  Instead he chose to get involved in politics and now he is some kind of slow confused idiot that like you say is "looks out of his element".

Carson grew up in urban Detroit in a broken family.  Given his childhood experience growing up and his proven intelligence in his profession.  I think the guy is fully capable to adapt to his position.

posted by majorspark

Ben Carson has separated conjoined twins.  That takes a tremendous amount of intelligence and dexterity.  As surgeons age they lose like all of us some of their physical abilities but not their mental capacity.

He could have retired in peace as an honorable man and maybe did something in the medical field.  Instead he chose to get involved in politics and now he is some kind of slow confused idiot that like you say is "looks out of his element".

Carson grew up in urban Detroit in a broken family.  Given his childhood experience growing up and his proven intelligence in his profession.  I think the guy is fully capable to adapt to his position.

Yes the movie was required in middle school I watched it

This has to be one of the funniest, and most ironic, things you'll see in politics:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/labor-fight-roils-bernie-sanders-campaign-as-workers-demand-the-15-hourly-pay-the-candidate-has-proposed-for-employees-nationwide/ar-AAEx8o9?li=BBnba9O

Bernie campaign workers - union, of course - are demanding a $15 per hour wage Sanders is saying should be the federal minimum.

So Mr. Socialist is proud he's the first campaign to unionize his workers...and they immediately turn around and hold his campaign hostage for higher pay.

posted by geeblock

I think the people you mentioned and the fact I don’t know who they are means they really don’t have a connection or get the respect from the black community, so when they join up with the gop I can see why people call them uncle toms in some cases 

You are digging your hole deeper  gee. 

Thr fact that you don’t know them means the black community doesn’t and that’s why they switched to the gop?

posted by geeblock

He also cut 16.4 percent from the hud budget which makes these two initiatives look like peanuts. Also the time he had no idea what REO’s were and thought they were talking about cookies. I think Ben Carson is a nice guy but he’s clearly being used 

You know your last sentence is basically the dog whistle for calling someone an Uncle Tom?