EW1984;1699070 wrote:Has anyone even thought of the dismal success rate of a lot of community colleges?

...

The graduation rate at Columbus State Community College is very low - 14%. Approximately 13% of the school's undergraduate students transfer to other colleges.

I'm curious where you get those numbers from. I know of 5 people who went to Columbus state. None graduated from there, but 3 did graduate from 4 year colleges. (I took all of my foreign language classes there, I know someone who took stats there and transferred that credit to a 4 year school, and I know another person who started on the 2 year path and transferred to a 4 year school and then graduated. The other two did not finish anywhere)

WebFire;1699050 wrote:Tax the people who actually plan for college, and give it free to those that don't.

Freakin' garbage. Got that right.

EW1984;1699070 wrote:Has anyone even thought of the dismal success rate of a lot of community colleges?

Oh yeah, I mentioned it in my first post on this thread. I see a lot of community college transfers where I work. Kansas has a MASSIVE community college system. I have chatted with numerous students who have taken advantage of the two-years of schooling -- mainly because of the price, not the academics. Pretty much all are guaranteed to spend another 3 years in undergrad after their 2 years in community college. Meanwhile, they are also getting PAID $1,000 per semester to go to community college. That's tough living, right? Getting paid to go to joke schools.

isadore;1699071 wrote:give to those that have and screw those in need.

Outside of your inability to actually converse well, taxing 529 plans has NOTHING to do with saying "screw those in need."

Many people have many complaints with numerous tax systems -- such as estate taxes, sales taxes, bed taxes, alcohol taxes, income taxes, etc. Why shouldn't 529 plans be criticized the same? Why is there a need to institute ANOTHER tax system? I hope to get a 529 plan (or something similar) setup for my kids...by no means am I rich or well-off. I want my kids to be able to go to college without the student loan debt that I've had -- thanks to being a blue-collar, white male. I'm not asking for a handout for people in my same situation...I'm asking, quit screwing people in my situation and allow us to actually get ahead in life by ourselves!

FatHobbit;1699117 wrote:I'm curious where you get those numbers from. I know of 5 people who went to Columbus state. None graduated from there, but 3 did graduate from 4 year colleges. (I took all of my foreign language classes there, I know someone who took stats there and transferred that credit to a 4 year school, and I know another person who started on the 2 year path and transferred to a 4 year school and then graduated. The other two did not finish anywhere)

Here's one report of it (2010 report, semi-recent). I'll apologize for EW1984, those that completed within CSCC is actually around 7-8%...so he had too high of statistics! If you take those that transferred out, it's around 24% for completion. And...this is completing a 1-2-year degree/certificate within 3 years...if that says anything more. Or, go by US News & World Report who says the 4-year graduation rate is a whopping 12%!

So...let's give free tuition to students to a school that has an abysmal 49% retention rate. That makes sense. Better yet, let's give free schooling for degrees that are widely useless these days since every job seems to require a 4-year degree OR a graduate degree.

gosh a ruddies a long list of excuses and rationalization justifying taking a positive action to return true social mobility to our nation. And 529 has been shown to used by mainly by the well to do, not those in need. Oh yes and conversation is highly overrated.

isadore;1699357 wrote:And 529 has been shown to used by mainly by the well to do, not those in need. Oh yes and conversation is highly overrated.

So, once again, punish the smart and prudent for making wise decisions and reward the ones too stupid and lazy to take advantage of numerous existing programs already in place?

OSH;1699327 wrote:Pretty much all are guaranteed to spend another 3 years in undergrad after their 2 years in community college.

That's a devilishly hidden cost in all this - 5 years to complete a 4 year degree. So you're incentivizing these poor, poor students to defer REAL earnings a year - $45k average starting salary!!! - to save 1 year of college tuition.

In other words, these poor poor students are trading $45k for 1 less year of tuition. Do the math - as I've said repeatedly, this program is for stupid people.

What a FREE education join the military ... Mofo

Belly35;1699364 wrote:Want a FREE education? Join the military ... Mofo

FIFY......Mofo pal!

isadore;1699357 wrote:a long list of excuses and rationalization justifying taking a positive action to return true social mobility to our nation. And 529 has been shown to used by mainly by the well to do, not those in need. Oh yes and conversation is highly overrated.

I firmly believe we can take positive actions for more accessible higher education. I just do not believe 2 free years of community college is the answer. Nor do I believe adding more taxes, and to a 529, is the proper way to do it.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

gut;1699362 wrote:So, once again, punish the smart and prudent for making wise decisions and reward the ones too stupid and lazy to take advantage of numerous existing programs already in place?

Exactly. While one wants to use some "source" for it...why not be a little more critical of one's own source...

isadore;1699071 wrote:Gosh a ruddies, give to those that have and screw those in need.
But experts said 529 plans, which are used by seven million families and hold $217 billion, disproportionately benefit the most affluent families, which can afford to save. More than 12 million accounts are in circulation, according to Strategic Insight, an investment consultant that tracks the industry. If more affluent families can afford to start saving early and often, the compounding over time enables them to avoid paying more taxes, especially those in higher tax brackets.
“They primarily provide a subsidy to people who would save in other forms anyway,” said Sandy Baum, a senior fellow at the Urban Institute.
Even if many middle-income families save in 529 plans, an administration official, referring to the Federal Reserve’s Survey of Consumer Finances, said that more than 70 percent of the account balances for 529 plans and another option known as Coverdell Education Savings Accounts are held by families with incomes over $200,000. (Those figures also include health savings accounts, but still provide a reasonable best estimate, the administration said.)
A report from the Government Accountability Office found that a small percentage of families use 529 plans and Coverdell accounts. And those that do use them have a median income that is three times the median income of families without the accounts.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/23/your-money/obamas-proposed-changes-to-529-college-savings-plans-would-reduce-benefits.html?_r=0

A "reasonable" best estimate...including a health savings plan into the statistics? Definitely not reasonable. There are also still 30% (their statistics) that use a 529 -- with some 10% being owned by families that make less than $50,000 per year. And...what did you forget to include...

The average value of a 529 account is $19,774, according to Strategic Insight, while it estimates the average contribution to accounts that receive regular electronic contributions is about $175 a month.

So...that's awesome, let's tax those because it really shows they are the "affluent" families that save with their 529 right? $20,000 or so...which is still below the average student loan debt on students today. Why not put them more in debt now too? And, regular contributions are $175 really show the affluent are saving too.

And...as the article concludes...imagine if the federal government were to start taxing everyone's Roth's!

Let's not let logic get in the way of this discussion though. We should continue to give people things because they use them wisely. It's always a smart idea to give 2 years of free schooling for 12% of those at CSCC to graduate in 4 years with a 1-2 year degree/certificate. National standards at public community colleges (because this is what will be affected by the POTUS change) is 20% completion rate of a 2-year program in 3 years! Compare this to nearly 60% of a 4-year degree (in 6 years) at public 4-year schools. Makes sense to invest in community colleges...or as I call them "Wasted Tax Money Institutions."

gut;1699362 wrote:So, once again, punish the smart and prudent for making wise decisions and reward the ones too stupid and lazy to take advantage of numerous existing programs already in place?

gosh a ruddies, hardly a surprise that you would support policies that favor the well to do. I am sure your "Republican Congress will be pushing more legislation that will further diminish chances social mobility and punish the poor and working class.

OSH;1699366 wrote:I firmly believe we can take positive actions for more accessible higher education. I just do not believe 2 free years of community college is the answer. Nor do I believe adding more taxes, and to a 529, is the proper way to do it.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

Gosh a ruddies, what is there to understand. You pay lip service to making post secondary education more accessible but oppose a program that would bring real change. But you do support a program that favors the well to do.

OSH;1699373 wrote:Exactly. While one wants to use some "source" for it...why not be a little more critical of one's own source...



A "reasonable" best estimate...including a health savings plan into the statistics? Definitely not reasonable. There are also still 30% (their statistics) that use a 529 -- with some 10% being owned by families that make less than $50,000 per year. And...what did you forget to include...



So...that's awesome, let's tax those because it really shows they are the "affluent" families that save with their 529 right? $20,000 or so...which is still below the average student loan debt on students today. Why not put them more in debt now too? And, regular contributions are $175 really show the affluent are saving too.

And...as the article concludes...imagine if the federal government were to start taxing everyone's Roth's!

Let's not let logic get in the way of this discussion though. We should continue to give people things because they use them wisely. It's always a smart idea to give 2 years of free schooling for 12% of those at CSCC to graduate in 4 years with a 1-2 year degree/certificate. National standards at public community colleges (because this is what will be affected by the POTUS change) is 20% completion rate of a 2-year program in 3 years! Compare this to nearly 60% of a 4-year degree (in 6 years) at public 4-year schools. Makes sense to invest in community colleges...or as I call them "Wasted Tax Money Institutions."

gosh a ruddies you want to know the number one reason that people drop out, the number one reason for that 20% number, economic. They can not afford it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/education/10graduate.html

isadore;1699380 wrote:gosh a ruddies you want to know the number one reason that people drop out, the number one reason for that 20% number, economic. They can not afford it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/education/10graduate.html

Most dropouts leave college because they have trouble going to school while working to support themselves

Yep, lazy. Many, many students are able to do this. Working full-time and going to school nights is probably the most common way people get GRADUATE degrees. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to work full-time and attend part-time - literally MILLIONS of people have demonstrated it can be done (many even do it with families/kids).

About 7 in 10 of the dropouts said they had no scholarship or loan aid.

This is just dumb. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for not applying for and receiving loans. Note, also, that the article says the majority come from families with less than $35k in income - students for whom tens of thousands of dollars of FREE financial aid is already available.

Balancing work and school was a bigger barrier than finding money for tuition, they said.

Ding ding ding! Work ethic, confirmed. And, again, I'd suggest the correlation with family incomes is also likely a correlation with inherited stupidity. It's tougher for them to do what millions of others have done because they simply aren't as smart.

Show me the average GPA of these dropouts relative to their fellow students. I'm hardly shocked that dropouts wouldn't site the obvious reason - they just weren't college material.

Actually Izzy...if you read the article you posted, the reasons that people dropped out were because they had to work full time and/or they had family commitments that took too much of their time...not that they couldn't get college money.

The top reason the dropouts gave for leaving college was that it was just too hard to support themselves and go to school at the same time. Balancing work and school was a bigger barrier than finding money for tuition, they said. In fact, more than a third of the dropouts said that even if they got a grant that covered their books and tuition, it would be hard to go back to school, given their work and family commitments.

I also question....

[With the Obama administration pushing to improve the nation’s competitiveness by doubling the number of college graduates/QUOTE]

??? # of college graduates does not necessarily equal greater competitiveness. If anything hinders the competitivness of our goods, it's the high cost of labor versus other countries.

gut;1699382 wrote:
Yep, lazy. Many, many students are able to do this. Working full-time and going to school nights is probably the most common way people get GRADUATE degrees. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to work full-time and attend part-time - literally MILLIONS of people have demonstrated it can be done (many even do it with families/kids).


This is just dumb. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for not applying for and receiving loans. Note, also, that the article says the majority come from families with less than $35k in income - students for whom tens of thousands of dollars of FREE financial aid is already available.


Ding ding ding! Work ethic, confirmed. And, again, I'd suggest the correlation with family incomes is also likely a correlation with inherited stupidity. It's tougher for them to do what millions of others have done because they simply aren't as smart.

Show me the average GPA of these dropouts relative to their fellow students. I'm hardly shocked that dropouts wouldn't site the obvious reason - they just weren't college material.

Gosh a ruddies lets take a look at some of the things you left out about the financial resources of the folks who make it and those that are force to drop outl
“The study, which has a margin of error of plus or minus five percentage points, found substantial differences between those who completed a degree and those who did not. Among those who dropped out, nearly 6 in 10 got no help from their parents in paying tuition. Among those who got degrees, more than 6 in 10 had tuition help from their families.”
“Almost three-quarters of those who completed a degree had household incomes above $35,000. Among the dropouts, more than half had household incomes below $35,000. “
And something you did quote
“About 7 in 10 of the dropouts said they had no scholarship or loan aid. Among those who got degrees, only about four in 10 went without such aid. “
Your interpretation was in error, there is nothing there for these folks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/ed...0graduate.html

gut;1699382 wrote:
Yep, lazy. Many, many students are able to do this. Working full-time and going to school nights is probably the most common way people get GRADUATE degrees. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to work full-time and attend part-time - literally MILLIONS of people have demonstrated it can be done (many even do it with families/kids).


This is just dumb. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for not applying for and receiving loans. Note, also, that the article says the majority come from families with less than $35k in income - students for whom tens of thousands of dollars of FREE financial aid is already available.


Ding ding ding! Work ethic, confirmed. And, again, I'd suggest the correlation with family incomes is also likely a correlation with inherited stupidity. It's tougher for them to do what millions of others have done because they simply aren't as smart.

Show me the average GPA of these dropouts relative to their fellow students. I'm hardly shocked that dropouts wouldn't site the obvious reason - they just weren't college material.

Gosh a ruddies lets take a look at some of the things you left out about the financial resources of the folks who make it and those that are force to drop outl
“The study, which has a margin of error of plus or minus five percentage points, found substantial differences between those who completed a degree and those who did not. Among those who dropped out, nearly 6 in 10 got no help from their parents in paying tuition. Among those who got degrees, more than 6 in 10 had tuition help from their families.”
“Almost three-quarters of those who completed a degree had household incomes above $35,000. Among the dropouts, more than half had household incomes below $35,000. “
And something you did quote
“About 7 in 10 of the dropouts said they had no scholarship or loan aid. Among those who got degrees, only about four in 10 went without such aid. “
Your interpretation was in error, there is nothing there for these folks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/ed...0graduate.html

Among those who dropped out, nearly 6 in 10 got no help from their parents in paying tuition. Among those who got degrees, more than 6 in 10 had tuition help from their families.”

gosh a ruddies....and you want to tax the vehichle that parents can use to save and help their children? SMH.

HitsRus;1699384 wrote:Actually Izzy...if you read the article you posted, the reasons that people dropped out were because they had to work full time and/or they had family commitments that took too much of their time...not that they couldn't get college money.



I also question....

[With the Obama administration pushing to improve the nation’s competitiveness by doubling the number of college graduates/QUOTE]

??? # of college graduates does not necessarily equal greater competitiveness. If anything hinders the competitivness of our goods, it's the high cost of labor versus other countries.

The cost and the fact that they are forced to work full time at low paying jobs force them to drop out. Oh yes and their poor families are unable to provide them with money toward college costs.

Gosh but we have you arguing to cut the minimum wage so we can compete with Bangladesh

HitsRus;1699389 wrote:gosh a ruddies....and you want to tax the vehichle that parents can use to save and help their children? SMH.

and you oppose a program to help those whose parents are so poor they can not afford a 529

If the government should be subsidizing anything, it should be the trades where a definite shortage in YOUNG skilled workers exist.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/2013/03/07/americas-skilled-trades-dilemma-shortages-loom-as-most-in-demand-group-of-workers-ages/

We don't need people walking around with 2 year sociology degrees, we need skilled workers in the trades. Another benefit of subsidizing trades that you might like, is that alot of these workers will become UNION, hence the money will be well spent for your ilk's need to buy votes. You shoulld try suggesting that to your socialist superiors...it might get you some brownie points.

....and you know what else...trades offer apprenticeships which are paid!!!!

HitsRus;1699395 wrote:If the government should be subsidizing anything, it should be the trades where a definite shortage in YOUNG skilled workers exist.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/2013/03/07/americas-skilled-trades-dilemma-shortages-loom-as-most-in-demand-group-of-workers-ages/

We don't need people walking around with 2 year sociology degrees, we need skilled workers in the trades. Another benefit of subsidizing trades that you might like, is that alot of these workers will become UNION, hence the money will be well spent for your ilk's need to buy votes. You shoulld try suggesting that to your socialist superiors...it might get you some brownie points.

I have always believed that
Public post secondary education should include advanced vocational training.

isadore;1699398 wrote:I have always believed that
Public post secondary education should include advanced vocational training.

Most Americans, including conservatives don't mind spending tax money when it fulfills a national need. A limited focused program to address a national shortage and need for skilled tradesman(tradeswomen) could garner bipartisan support.
The problem is that this silly notion that taxpayer money should be thrown down a rabbit hole for useless 2 year degrees....and then to actually tax people(of any class) who are trying to fund education for their children is just a product of ill political will trying to capitalize on playing one class against the other. Unfortunately, this has been all to common in this administration, as they seek to split and parse groups to their political advantage. Forgive me for criticizing your hero, but this is what happens when a community organizer and his advisors try to push an agenda, rather than focus on what is good for ALL Americans, and what is doable in the political climate.

isadore;1699387 wrote:Among those who got degrees, more than 6 in 10 had tuition help from their families.”
“Almost three-quarters of those who completed a degree had household incomes above $35,000. Among the dropouts, more than half had household incomes below $35,000. “

As I've said repeatedly, stupidity is inherited. Poor people tend not to be very smart. Smart money (pun intended) those dropouts with household incomes below $35k just weren't capable. And money is not an excuse with so much free aid already available to such students (not to mention readily available loans). The obvious reason they dropped out is that they are dumb, and too ashamed to admit it in surveys - it's rather rare for people who fail at anything to blame themselves.

Now, I don't doubt that these students DO dropout for financial reasons. But it's not because they can't afford it, in most cases it's because they are either unlikely to complete their degree or their grades are so bad the shitty job waiting for them won't justify the investment. They realize they'll still be working at The Gap and so the degree is a waste of time and money.

isadore;1699393 wrote: The cost and the fact that they are forced to work full time at low paying jobs force them to drop out. Oh yes and their poor families are unable to provide them with money toward college costs.

Smart, non-lazy people have successfully gone that route for decades, and continue to do so.

And has been said repeatedly, there's no shortage of money. Dropping out for financial reasons is simply a complete and total bullshit excuse.