Con_Alma;1686382 wrote:Discussing who was "less worse" is ridiculous to me. It's been my opinion all along that the QB to lead the team on a deep playoff run is not currently on the roster.

We know Hoyer isn't...and so far Johnny isn't. Well know more in 2 games, then if you have to, you draft a QB(you have the fire power to move up) and you get the preseason to evaluate Johnny and new QB(if needed) next year. Same shit, different year. FML.

bases_loaded;1686440 wrote:We know Hoyer isn't...and so far Johnny isn't. Well know more in 2 games, then if you have to, you draft a QB(you have the fire power to move up) and you get the preseason to evaluate Johnny and new QB(if needed) next year. Same shit, different year. FML.

I know it's too early to make a call on Manziel but how much is it going to suck, after a 7 win season of "promise", if they are back to square one at the QB position next year? It will be like Derek Anderson 2.0

bases_loaded;1686440 wrote:We know Hoyer isn't...and so far Johnny isn't. Well know more in 2 games, then if you have to, you draft a QB(you have the fire power to move up) and you get the preseason to evaluate Johnny and new QB(if needed) next year. Same shit, different year. FML.

With so many other needs, it will be hard to justify taking another first round QB. I think the job has to be Johnny's next year to give him a fair evaluation. With that said, I worry about some of his problems.

1) His mechanics are awful. I can't remember a pass when he had proper footwork.

2) His decision making is awful. He got into many bad habits in college because he could get away with just throwing it up for grabs because his receivers were so talented.

3) He has a weak arm. Proper mechanics will help this some, but he just doesn't have the arm strength of most NFL QB's.

4) He doesn't know how to read a defense. This is the first time in his life that he has been asked to run an actual offense. His work ethic has been terrible until the past week.

The arm strength point is what I'm most worried about. That ball to Gabriel, although should have still been caught, was a fucking lame ass duck throw. He made some other throws as well that you could just tell had zero zip on the ball. It's going to cause a lot of interceptions for him in the NFL.

SportsAndLady;1686456 wrote:The arm strength point is what I'm most worried about. That ball to Gabriel, although should have still been caught, was a fucking lame ass duck throw. He made some other throws as well that you could just tell had zero zip on the ball. It's going to cause a lot of interceptions for him in the NFL.

I agree. The other issues could improve with experience. I think proper mechanics will help some with the arm strength, but it is still way below average NFL arm strength.

Al Bundy;1686452 wrote:With so many other needs, it will be hard to justify taking another first round QB. I think the job has to be Johnny's next year to give him a fair evaluation. With that said, I worry about some of his problems.

1) His mechanics are awful. I can't remember a pass when he had proper footwork.

2) His decision making is awful. He got into many bad habits in college because he could get away with just throwing it up for grabs because his receivers were so talented.

3) He has a weak arm. Proper mechanics will help this some, but he just doesn't have the arm strength of most NFL QB's.

4) He doesn't know how to read a defense. This is the first time in his life that he has been asked to run an actual offense. His work ethic has been terrible until the past week.

I agree next year has to be Johnny's as well. Mainly, because I don't really see a top tier, pocket passing QB in the draft. I really wish we'd just offer the moon to a proven QB in free agency at some point. The problem is, those "franchise" guys barely ever make it to free agency anymore.

Dr. KnOiTaLL;1686463 wrote:I agree next year has to be Johnny's as well. Mainly, because I don't really see a top tier, pocket passing QB in the draft. I really wish we'd just offer the moon to a proven QB in free agency at some point. The problem is, those "franchise" guys barely ever make it to free agency anymore.

And that's a thing that sucks about college ball. Just like it's not easy to find a 4-3 DE that can be converted to a 3-4 OLB, it's not easy finding a legit QB. Sure, franchise QB's don't grow on trees but it's a lot harder finding one when these college coaches, who are trying to keep their jobs, run these read options and spread offense which don't necessarily translate to the NFL. The Andrew Luck's of CFB just aren't nearly as common because many of these schools aren't running pro style offenses.

Wow....talk about knee jerk. I knew he looked bad but.....

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24891388/look-johnny-football-t-shirt-placed-on-clearance-rack

Al Bundy;1686460 wrote:I agree. The other issues could improve with experience. I think proper mechanics will help some with the arm strength, but it is still way below average NFL arm strength.

Agree. If he'd actually step in to a throw it would sure help.

SportsAndLady;1686456 wrote:The arm strength point is what I'm most worried about. That ball to Gabriel, although should have still been caught, was a fucking lame ass duck throw. He made some other throws as well that you could just tell had zero zip on the ball. It's going to cause a lot of interceptions for him in the NFL.

It would help if he would step into a throw every once in a while.

Regardless...it was a historically bad debut. I have been calling for Johnny all season. Calling him the next Brett Favre and the whole 9 yards. Not ready throw dirt on his grave after one game. However, that was dreadful.

Here's the thing. That game is probably the best thing that could happen to Johnny. Talk about a valuable learning experience. If he were to go in and have huge success...it would reinforce ALL his bad habits. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are the hardest workers on the team. The dedication they have to film study is legendary. I'm sure Rodgers is the same way. From what I have read, Johnny hasn't shown that mentality yet. A couple of games like this might drill into his head that he needs to prepare a little more to be ready to play because the guys he is playing against are ready.

I was reading an article (maybe Bill Simmons...can't remember) and he was talking about how he met Julian Edelman and Edelman told him that Tom Brady is in bed every night during the season by like 9 PM. Not saying Johnny has to go from one extreme to the other...but a couple games like this and he is going to realize that what he is doing isn't working.

TBone14;1686471 wrote:
Here's the thing. That game is probably the best thing that could happen to Johnny. Talk about a valuable learning experience. If he were to go in and have huge success...it would reinforce ALL his bad habits. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are the hardest workers on the team. The dedication they have to film study is legendary. I'm sure Rodgers is the same way. From what I have read, Johnny hasn't shown that mentality yet. A couple of games like this might drill into his head that he needs to prepare a little more to be ready to play because the guys he is playing against are ready.
.

This was the first thing I thought after watching that game. He may have to bite the bullet and do this to save his career.

BR1986FB;1686475 wrote:This was the first thing I thought after watching that game. He may have to bite the bullet and do this to save his career.

It's usually bad news when reports of him working hard don't come out until he has been gifted the starting job. It's obvious that he hadn't been doing much in the way of working on fundamentals of throwing a football.

I expect him to have much, much better results going forward once he gets comfortable. Probably would have been easier for him if he had started week 1 and been able to build off the preseason games and snaps. Hard to ask a rookie to come in this late in the season against the division leaders and light it up. Plus, the offense hadnt been doing much lately anyways.

thavoice;1686515 wrote:Probably would have been easier for him if he had started week 1 and been able to build off the preseason games and snaps.

I could not disagree with you more. If Hoyer had been decent, Manziel would be able to learn for a whole year before being afforded the chance to win the job.

Sonofanump;1686534 wrote:I could not disagree with you more. If Hoyer had been decent, Manziel would be able to learn for a whole year before being afforded the chance to win the job.

You learn by playing, period.

What I meant by that was if he was the starter week 1 he would have been getting the bulk of the reps in the preseason and have those snaps AND preseason game snaps to fall back on.
Since it took this long for him to become the starter it has been quite a long time between the bulk of the reps and actual game action. Much of it is muscle memory and by not having game action since August didnt help himone bit

thavoice;1686515 wrote:I expect him to have much, much better results going forward once he gets comfortable. Probably would have been easier for him if he had started week 1 and been able to build off the preseason games and snaps. Hard to ask a rookie to come in this late in the season against the division leaders and light it up. Plus, the offense hadnt been doing much lately anyways.

I disagree, you have to be able to learn while not playing. I don't think anyone with common sense expected Manziel to tear it up, but it doesn't look like he learned one thing from the time he was drafted to now. You do need game reps for some things, but footwork and throwing mechanics aren't those things.

http://nypost.com/2014/12/15/how-the-browns-sabotaged-johnny-manziels-first-start/

I was ahead of the curve on this as usual.

Mainstream national outlets are picking up on how the Browns have bungled and undermined Johnny, and on the OC all you get are thread bans and accusations your a troll just saying outrageous things.

I'll go on continuing to tell the truth as usual because I will ultimately be vindicated as has often been the case.

"Shanahan even had manziel try to be a pocket passer"

Stop the madness!!

SportsAndLady;1686673 wrote:"Shanahan even had manziel try to be a pocket passer"

Stop the madness!!

Don't you have a bridge somewhere you should be guarding right now?

SportsAndLady;1686673 wrote:"Shanahan even had manziel try to be a pocket passer"

Stop the madness!!

Are there even pocket passers in the NFL anymore? :rolleyes:

Love it when Clown Fans turn on themselves...like sharks when one gets accidently bit they start attacking each other. What a sports weekend!!!...Got my Sugar Bowl tiks on Fri, went to the CBJ game on Sat knocking off the Pens, then on Sunday watched the greatest defeat in the history of the NFL...Tiernan is tierning it up!

Tiernan;1686703 wrote:Love it when Clown Fans turn on themselves...like sharks when one gets accidently bit they start attacking each other. What a sports weekend!!!...Got my Sugar Bowl tiks on Fri, went to the CBJ game on Sat knocking off the Pens, then on Sunday watched the greatest defeat in the history of the NFL...Tiernan is tierning it up!

Who is "turning" on anyone? The people who are getting shit on this thread are people that many of us don't consider "fans" because they are drama queens or wish injury on Browns players.

FW-

If you're out there and all right please check in and let us know.

Second post. how about keeping a coach and Hoyer and building around something positive this year. with a healthy line and small receivers Hoyer did great. spend our draft picks to build around a core.