bcsbunk - My point isn't about tradition or emotional (at all). Mine is about creativity and unique representation. I like the jacket idea. I like the letter idea. Lots of groups can and do use those concepts.

But if I started a group in my school and wanted to represent my school and display my membership/accomplishments in a specific group, I wouldn't choose the EXACT SAME STYLE as another group, especially when that style is universally recognized for a different and particular group. Whether you like it or not and whether it is copywrighted or not, the "varsity jacket" is assoicated with athletes. Stealing the LOOK (not the concept) makes one look like a wannabe and obviously takes all the focus off of exactly what it is that is trying to be broadcast.

Can we blame this whole thing on soccer and the "soccer mom" mentality? Oops, I think I already did.

If not soccer, let's blame George Bush!

BCSbunk wrote:

enigmaax wrote:

BCSbunk wrote: No one is arguing they are the same. If you give a trophy for baseball and a trophy for dance both received a trophy but they are not the same.

Your argument is implying that the person who received a trophy for baseball should refuse because it is not important now that someone for dance received a trophy.

Band and choir are different and they are not sports. They felt that the letter idea is a good idea and I am in agreement it is a very good idea.

What exactly is wrong about borrowing a successful reward system which a letter actually is and using it for other activities?

The varsity jackets I have seen have a "rocker" that designates what the letter is for. Band say band, choir, football, wrestling etc

There is no rule that only sports can monopolize a reward system it is ridiculous when broken down to what it really is.

I haven't read this whole thread, but in your description, if someone in the band is wearing a varsity jacket but adding "band" to it, isn't that more like buying a trophy with a baseball player but making the plate say, "band"?

I wouldn't think that the letter is the biggest concern, it is the jacket. Most of the high schools in my area have the leather-arm design for varsity sports and a different jacket for other extra-curriculars. Most of the competitive activities can earn a letter.

The reward system is great and using it for multiple activities isn't a bad idea. But really, who would want to steal every detail of another organizations system and not make it their own in some way. Design your own jacket, that seems pretty simple and nobody would argue this either way.

No not at all. In fact his post was guilty of logical fallacy Appeal to tradition.

His argument is not sound I am showing an analogy using a trophy generic.

I can do the same with the varsity jacket without a letter it still functions correctly.

There is no sound logical argument against the band and choir having varsity jackets and/or letters. If there is I would like to see one.

So far I see emotional appeals and appeals to tradition both logical fallacy and terrible reasoning.

Why is it wrong to adopt a successful reward system that is not copywrited?

That above is what this is all about. Band and Choir have adopted a successful reward system.

If someone feels that is watering down the reward they are going to need to give a sound argument without appeals to tradtion and emotional appeals and I can really see none.

By any chance, have you read "Asking the Right Questions: A Guide to Critical Thinking", by M. Neil Browne and Stuart M. Keeley?

Flashback to freshman year in the BG Honors Program...*shudders*...

Crew Love wrote:

BCSbunk wrote:

enigmaax wrote:

BCSbunk wrote: No one is arguing they are the same. If you give a trophy for baseball and a trophy for dance both received a trophy but they are not the same.

Your argument is implying that the person who received a trophy for baseball should refuse because it is not important now that someone for dance received a trophy.

Band and choir are different and they are not sports. They felt that the letter idea is a good idea and I am in agreement it is a very good idea.

What exactly is wrong about borrowing a successful reward system which a letter actually is and using it for other activities?

The varsity jackets I have seen have a "rocker" that designates what the letter is for. Band say band, choir, football, wrestling etc

There is no rule that only sports can monopolize a reward system it is ridiculous when broken down to what it really is.

I haven't read this whole thread, but in your description, if someone in the band is wearing a varsity jacket but adding "band" to it, isn't that more like buying a trophy with a baseball player but making the plate say, "band"?

I wouldn't think that the letter is the biggest concern, it is the jacket. Most of the high schools in my area have the leather-arm design for varsity sports and a different jacket for other extra-curriculars. Most of the competitive activities can earn a letter.

The reward system is great and using it for multiple activities isn't a bad idea. But really, who would want to steal every detail of another organizations system and not make it their own in some way. Design your own jacket, that seems pretty simple and nobody would argue this either way.

No not at all. In fact his post was guilty of logical fallacy Appeal to tradition.

His argument is not sound I am showing an analogy using a trophy generic.

I can do the same with the varsity jacket without a letter it still functions correctly.

There is no sound logical argument against the band and choir having varsity jackets and/or letters. If there is I would like to see one.

So far I see emotional appeals and appeals to tradition both logical fallacy and terrible reasoning.

Why is it wrong to adopt a successful reward system that is not copywrited?

That above is what this is all about. Band and Choir have adopted a successful reward system.

If someone feels that is watering down the reward they are going to need to give a sound argument without appeals to tradtion and emotional appeals and I can really see none.

By any chance, have you read "Asking the Right Questions: A Guide to Critical Thinking", by M. Neil Browne and Stuart M. Keeley?

Flashback to freshman year in the BG Honors Program...*shudders*...

I am a gold panner

ccrunner609 wrote:

Keebler wrote: Giving a letter to someone in band is like giving anyone who works at a hospital an M.D. title. Just because they work there, they should get it. I'm sure we would all accept Dr. Janitor.

this

This is classic faulty analogy. Being in the band and getting a letter or varsity jacket is the same as being an employee at a hospital and getting a doctorate degree?

Piss poor reasoning there.

My girl already lettered in something as well.

BCS,

you remind me of the college professor everybody eventually has that hides behind his degree and manages to piss everyone one of his students off and then wonders why people drop his class....

stop being an ass

Keebler wrote: Giving a letter to someone in band is like giving anyone who works at a hospital an M.D. title. Just because they work there, they should get it. I'm sure we would all accept Dr. Janitor.

First, love the scrubs reference.

Second, way off base. Check the other thread I started. I actually make my students earn them, as do several other schools.

Third, it is a school jacket, not a jacket for the elite. The jacket instills pride in the school, it is the letter that recognizes accomplishment.

I realize there are some band and choir programs out there who handed a letter to everyone (I came from one of them, and I don't claim to have a varsity letter), but there are also some athletic programs that give letters to benchwarmers.

Varisty letters for non athletic participation is one of my biggest pet peeves. I don't doubt that they work hard at their band/chior/academics/library aide/drama/AV Club/debate team or whatever. But can't we just have one damned thing left for the kids who put the asses in the seats on Friday nights and bring some much needed cash into the school systems? This political correctness is going to be the death of this nation, and starts with shit like this.

THE4RINGZ wrote: Varisty letters for non athletic participation is one of my biggest pet peeves. I don't doubt that they work hard at their band/chior/academics/library aide/drama/AV Club/debate team or whatever. But can't we just have one damned thing left for the kids who put the asses in the seats on Friday nights and bring some much needed cahs into the school systems. This political correctness is going to be the death of this nation, and starts with shit like this.

Did you even take the time to read either of these threads?

That's your biggest pet peeve?

Really?


(Or, excuse me, "One of" your biggest???)

In the words of Cedric the Entertainer....I'm a grown ass man, dawg.

My list of pet peeves is quite long thank you. Call me an elitist.

redfalcon wrote:

THE4RINGZ wrote: Varisty letters for non athletic participation is one of my biggest pet peeves. I don't doubt that they work hard at their band/chior/academics/library aide/drama/AV Club/debate team or whatever. But can't we just have one damned thing left for the kids who put the asses in the seats on Friday nights and bring some much needed cahs into the school systems. This political correctness is going to be the death of this nation, and starts with shit like this.

Did you even take the time to read either of these threads?

Depends on my mood.

THE4RINGZ wrote: Depends on my mood.

So in other words, no.

ccrunner609 wrote: You guys dont get it, Varsity Letters are for sports, always have been. Always will.

Logical fallacy Appeal to tradition.

sorry man you need better reasoning.

Is logical fallacy appeal the only three words you know? It doesn't help your argument using it over and over again.

Choir letter jackets are not as dumb as those blue corduroy FFA coats. Why the hell does becoming a farmer mean you get a special coat with embroidery?

Ah, the bitch slapping of 4ringz never gets old.

Speaking as a former band/choir member, it's silly to have lettermen jackets for those members.

ccrunner609 wrote: Another thing, band and stuff are not held to the same requirements as sports. THey dont have to follow a code of conduct, eligibility ect.

You would be wrong again. My school has a policy that any student who is failing a course does not get to perform or take any trips with the band until their grades are up. Our choir recently went to Salt Lake City, and several students who didn't have their grades up didn't make the trip.

I think what is annoying me most here is people who have never participated in school music keep making several assumptions about the music programs, and they are way, way off base.

dont think band or choir members have to follow an athletic code though. If an athlete gets caught drinking, smoking, using anything, they are suspended 2 games the first strike, 4 games the second strike, and off the team for good the third strike. if a band or choir member is caught drinking do they sit out or get some punishment? doubt it

Keebler wrote: Is logical fallacy appeal the only three words you know? It doesn't help your argument using it over and over again.

Yes it does. I suggest you take a critical thinking class or read a few books on logic and reasoning.

If the arguments are logically fallicious then they are bad reasoning.

The OP is upset about choir getting varsity jackets the people in that view need to present well reasoned arguments to support their position.

If they do not then they should be duly noted and marked as not reasonable arguments.

So far not one single non-fallicious argument as to why it is wrong for the Band to adopt a reward system that is used by another activity.

That is the question here Is it wrong for one activity to adopt anothers reward system.

Sports use a varsity jacket and letters as a reward system. They have no monopoly on them so far not one single person has shown why sports gets to have a monopoly on this reward system or why it is wrong for another activity (band-Choir) to adopt that system.

Saying it is wrong is not an argument it is just an opinion.

Appealing to tradition is not sound reasoning. I already provided a link showing why it is not sound reasoning.

Appeal to emotion is also not sound reasoning it is logical fallacy.

Faulty analogy is also a logical fallacy.

I have not seen one person present a good argument not a single one.

Remember we are looking if the OP is true or not and breaking it down to its basic elements which I did above.

Is it wrong for X to adopt a rewards system that Y has been using.

That is what is being discussed and so far all are failures at showing why it is wrong except for a ton of logical fallacy which means the reasoning is not sound.

So my calling out logical fallacy in this case is correct and needed.

Please show me why X cannot adopt Y's reward system. Why is that wrong as the OP points out?

BCSbunk wrote:

Keebler wrote: Is logical fallacy appeal the only three words you know? It doesn't help your argument using it over and over again.

Yes it does. I suggest you take a critical thinking class or read a few books on logic and reasoning.

If the arguments are logically fallicious then they are bad reasoning.

The OP is upset about choir getting varsity jackets the people in that view need to present well reasoned arguments to support their position.

If they do not then they should be duly noted and marked as not reasonable arguments.

So far not one single non-fallicious argument as to why it is wrong for the Band to adopt a reward system that is used by another activity.

That is the question here Is it wrong for one activity to adopt anothers reward system.

Sports use a varsity jacket and letters as a reward system. They have no monopoly on them so far not one single person has shown why sports gets to have a monopoly on this reward system or why it is wrong for another activity (band-Choir) to adopt that system.

Saying it is wrong is not an argument it is just an opinion.

Appealing to tradition is not sound reasoning. I already provided a link showing why it is not sound reasoning.

Appeal to emotion is also not sound reasoning it is logical fallacy.

Faulty analogy is also a logical fallacy.

I have not seen one person present a good argument not a single one.

Remember we are looking if the OP is true or not and breaking it down to its basic elements which I did above.

Is it wrong for X to adopt a rewards system that Y has been using.

That is what is being discussed and so far all are failures at showing why it is wrong except for a ton of logical fallacy which means the reasoning is not sound.

So my calling out logical fallacy in this case is correct and needed.

Please show me why X cannot adopt Y's reward system. Why is that wrong as the OP points out?

were you in my EN 102 writing arguments class last year?

UA5straightin2008 wrote:

BCSbunk wrote:

Keebler wrote: Is logical fallacy appeal the only three words you know? It doesn't help your argument using it over and over again.

Yes it does. I suggest you take a critical thinking class or read a few books on logic and reasoning.

If the arguments are logically fallicious then they are bad reasoning.

The OP is upset about choir getting varsity jackets the people in that view need to present well reasoned arguments to support their position.

If they do not then they should be duly noted and marked as not reasonable arguments.

So far not one single non-fallicious argument as to why it is wrong for the Band to adopt a reward system that is used by another activity.

That is the question here Is it wrong for one activity to adopt anothers reward system.

Sports use a varsity jacket and letters as a reward system. They have no monopoly on them so far not one single person has shown why sports gets to have a monopoly on this reward system or why it is wrong for another activity (band-Choir) to adopt that system.

Saying it is wrong is not an argument it is just an opinion.

Appealing to tradition is not sound reasoning. I already provided a link showing why it is not sound reasoning.

Appeal to emotion is also not sound reasoning it is logical fallacy.

Faulty analogy is also a logical fallacy.

I have not seen one person present a good argument not a single one.

Remember we are looking if the OP is true or not and breaking it down to its basic elements which I did above.

Is it wrong for X to adopt a rewards system that Y has been using.

That is what is being discussed and so far all are failures at showing why it is wrong except for a ton of logical fallacy which means the reasoning is not sound.

So my calling out logical fallacy in this case is correct and needed.

Please show me why X cannot adopt Y's reward system. Why is that wrong as the OP points out?

were you in my EN 102 writing arguments class last year?

No, I am old LOL.

I don't believe a letter should be awarded for choir or band.