hoops23;1176999 wrote:Actually, yes. The CSA of Detroit is ranked 11th with 5.2 million while Cleveland's is ranked 15th with 2.8 million.

Now, before you get technical, it's not quite doubled, but still a bit more.

]You including Akron? Canton?

Footwedge;1177003 wrote:]You including Akron? Canton?

You including Warren, Sterling Heights, and Ann Arbor?

GOONx19;1177031 wrote:You including Warren, Sterling Heights, and Ann Arbor?

Yes, why? Nobody is disputing that Detroit has a little bigger drawing area. If you want to start another pissing contest, then go to the basement and lift the toilet seat.

I think I pretty well explained my position regarding tribe attendence or lack there of. I cited the Tiger ownership as one who spends a lot more than Dolan does. I made reference to that in saying that Perez didn't acknowledge that fact.

I'm also saying that given the tribe's surprising good start, the attendence blows so far...which it has.

jordo212000;1177001 wrote:I really can't win. I was honestly defending the Indians. I like Choo, Santana, and Asdrubal a lot. The team is talented and it is shame that more people don't watch them. The Browns do not have "marketable" talent yet sell out every game. The Cavs had strong attendance and they weren't good either.

The Indians are the red headed step children in the city and they are the ones closest to winning a title. Fans bicker about ownership, but say what you will the team is trending in the right direction.

EDIT. Looks like the Cavs attendance trailed off towards the end of the season, but they still finished 19th in attendance which was more than what Indiana got

The problem with comparing to the browns is that there are a limited amount of games

wes_mantooth;1177070 wrote:The problem with comparing to the browns is that there are a limited amount of games

Comparing 8 regular season home games to 82 regular season home games is completely idiotic, and I wouldn't expect anyone to make that comparison except for a specific idiot.

like_that;1177083 wrote:Comparing 8 regular season home games to 82 regular season home games is completely idiotic, and I wouldn't expect anyone to make that comparison except for a specific idiot.

That specific idiot would only do so when it fits their argument. Whether or not its even applicable has no bearing on the discussion.

Its also just the fact that Cleveland is a football town and thats just the way it is, for better or worse.

wes_mantooth;1177070 wrote:The problem with comparing to the browns is that there are a limited amount of games

A better argument would be Marietta College Baseball team. Despite winning the Div III record 5th College World Series Championship, no one goes to the game. I'm not sure why, they have a great program there and tons of up and coming talent. Their football team isn't nearly as good or marketable, infact they didn't even the Div III championship game last season yet tons of students still go in larger numbers than the students/Alumni that go the baseball games.

Commander of Awesome;1177086 wrote:A better argument would be Marietta College Baseball team. Despite winning the Div III record 5th College World Series Championship, no one goes to the game. I'm not sure why, they have a great program there and tons of up and coming talent. Their football team isn't nearly as good or marketable, infact they didn't even the Div III championship game last season yet tons of students still go in larger numbers than the students/Alumni that go the baseball games.

Are you trying to say baseball games are boring to go to? lol

Commander of Awesome;1177086 wrote:A better argument would be Marietta College Baseball team. Despite winning the Div III record 5th College World Series Championship, no one goes to the game. I'm not sure why, they have a great program there and tons of up and coming talent. Their football team isn't nearly as good or marketable, infact they didn't even the Div III championship game last season yet tons of students still go in larger numbers than the students/Alumni that go the baseball games.

LOL. Reps when I can.

wildcats20;1177090 wrote:Are you trying to say baseball games are boring to go to? lol

No I just surprised more students dont go to Marietta baseball games, their team is good and tons of marketable talent.

wes_mantooth;1177070 wrote:The problem with comparing to the browns is that there are a limited amount of games

Where you can compare is that the Browns tend to be able to do no wrong, though their ownership hasn't exactly set the world on fire either. You can't really compare spending-wise because there is a pretty high salary floor in the NFL, bur in general the Browns ownership has a long ass leash compared to the Tribe in the fans' minds.

ts1227;1177101 wrote:Where you can compare is that the Browns tend to be able to do no wrong, though their ownership hasn't exactly set the world on fire either. You can't really compare spending-wise because there is a pretty high salary floor in the NFL, bur in general the Browns ownership has a long ass leash compared to the Tribe in the fans' minds.

They have just made idiotic moves (way too many to list), it's not like they have thrown two big middle fingers at the fan base though. You can tell they have been trying, but they have just been making ill advised moves.

like_that;1177105 wrote:They have just made idiotic moves (way too many to list), it's not like they have thrown two big middle fingers at the fan base though. You can tell they have been trying, but they have just been making ill advised moves.

Agreed, for the Browns to do what the indians have done, they'd have to trade Joe Thomas in his prime before the contract extension, and then trade Alex Mack the next the season. Then trade Joe Haden and Shread for J. Peppers trying to spin it so that they're trying to "win now" BS.

ts1227;1177101 wrote:Where you can compare is that the Browns tend to be able to do no wrong, though their ownership hasn't exactly set the world on fire either. You can't really compare spending-wise because there is a pretty high salary floor in the NFL, bur in general the Browns ownership has a long ass leash compared to the Tribe in the fans' minds.

the coaches and gms have taken all of lerner's heat whereas the dolans have taken all the heat for the lee/sabathia deals

Yes, because the Dolans are cheap and continue to sell off talent. Trading an ace pitcher with 1.5 years left is stupid, especially when you get a pile of shit in return.

like_that;1177105 wrote:They have just made idiotic moves (way too many to list), it's not like they have thrown two big middle fingers at the fan base though. You can tell they have been trying, but they have just been making ill advised moves.

yeah, excellent point.

hoops23;1177114 wrote:Yes, because the Dolans are cheap and continue to sell off talent. Trading an ace pitcher with 1.5 years left is stupid, especially when you get a pile of shit in return.

Not to mention trading their best hitter whole openly wanted to stay with the organization, then cried when he was traded because he didn't want to leave the great fans and city of Cleveland.

hoops23;1177114 wrote:Yes, because the Dolans are cheap and continue to sell off talent. Trading an ace pitcher with 1.5 years left is stupid, especially when you get a pile of **** in return.

that's the kicker. you're already kicking the fan base in the nuts by trading the reigning cy young winner and then you compound the problem by not completely raping the phillies in the process. having the sabathia trade flounder didn't help any either.

so basically the ownership and front office has created an environment where any perceived star up for a new contract will be dangled as trade bait and sold for pennies on the dollar. really makes people want to go all in with their support

The Indians problem is not the "people can watch it on TVs at home" problem that everyone says it is. That is anecdotal at best. Attendance around MLB was awful and shitty from the late 60's all the way through the 80's. Attendance around baseball has been rising the past few years, not falling. And if the whole "A/C, plasma TVs" anecdote was true, then no team would have good attendance numbers. Yet in Boston, and New York, and St. Louis, and the north side of Chicago, and Milwaukee, they don't have any problems drawing fans. And Milwaukee is the smallest market in MLB.

The Indians have NOTHING to draw people to the ballpark though. I'll bet you that a casual baseball fan from either coast couldn't name 2 players on the Indians. I mean, I'm a HUGE baseball fan that follows more than just the Reds, and even I will watch Indians games and say to myself "Who?!". There is just nothing compelling about the team. No one is hitting HRs out of the park at a high rate, no pitcher is striking out guys at high rate every 5th game. It's just a bunch of mostly young no-names that range from bad to pretty good, without anyone standing out as truly great. That's a marketing problem. No one wants to watch you win games if they go to the ballpark and can't pronounce Hannahan or Shin-Soo Choo or Kipniss (I just totally guessed on the spelling of that one). Like it or not....a team is a product. They have to be marketed like a product, or people will not go. What would the tagline be for this Indians team?

"Cleveland Indians baseball: Betcha Can't Name Our Starting Lineup!"

This isn't a knock on the actual Indians team. I think guys like Carlos Santana and Asdrubal Cabrera are good young players, but that's not what Cleveland needs. They need someone who Indians fans can point to and say "THAT is the best player in baseball at his position." or "THAT guy is the next [insert HOF player]". Hell, they don't even have a media whore type player who is super likeable to draw fans to the ballpark (think Brandon Phillips and his Twitter account). It's just the perfect shit storm of good, yet unassuming players. That doesn't = ticket sales.

It doesn't help that they're currently leading the worst division in baseball.

I see your point Mooney, but we had 4 (6 if you want to count Phillips/VMart, 7 if you include Lincecum) of those type players. And the dolans pissed them away (well two are injury plagued). That's not a marketing problem, thats an ownership problem IMO.

Mooney44Cards;1177149 wrote:The Indians problem is not the "people can watch it on TVs at home" problem that everyone says it is. That is anecdotal at best. Attendance around MLB was awful and shitty from the late 60's all the way through the 80's. Attendance around baseball has been rising the past few years, not falling. And if the whole "A/C, plasma TVs" anecdote was true, then no team would have good attendance numbers. Yet in Boston, and New York, and St. Louis, and the north side of Chicago, and Milwaukee, they don't have any problems drawing fans. And Milwaukee is the smallest market in MLB.

The Indians have NOTHING to draw people to the ballpark though. I'll bet you that a casual baseball fan from either coast couldn't name 2 players on the Indians. I mean, I'm a HUGE baseball fan that follows more than just the Reds, and even I will watch Indians games and say to myself "Who?!". There is just nothing compelling about the team. No one is hitting HRs out of the park at a high rate, no pitcher is striking out guys at high rate every 5th game. It's just a bunch of mostly young no-names that range from bad to pretty good, without anyone standing out as truly great. That's a marketing problem. No one wants to watch you win games if they go to the ballpark and can't pronounce Hannahan or Shin-Soo Choo or Kipniss (I just totally guessed on the spelling of that one). Like it or not....a team is a product. They have to be marketed like a product, or people will not go. What would the tagline be for this Indians team?

"Cleveland Indians baseball: Betcha Can't Name Our Starting Lineup!"

This isn't a knock on the actual Indians team. I think guys like Carlos Santana and Asdrubal Cabrera are good young players, but that's not what Cleveland needs. They need someone who Indians fans can point to and say "THAT is the best player in baseball at his position." or "THAT guy is the next [insert HOF player]". Hell, they don't even have a media whore type player who is super likeable to draw fans to the ballpark (think Brandon Phillips and his Twitter account). It's just the perfect shit storm of good, yet unassuming players. That doesn't = ticket sales.

It doesn't help that they're currently leading the worst division in baseball.

right, there is no star power. I mean, if they went out and went crazy...paying for Fielder or another big name, would attendance be an issue?

Commander of Awesome;1177153 wrote:I see your point Mooney, but we had 4 (6 if you want to count Phillips/VMart, 7 if you include Lincecum) of those type players. And the dolans pissed them away (well two are injury plagued). That's not a marketing problem, thats an ownership problem IMO.

I would say it's a combo of what Mooney said and definitely the ownership.

When is Gilbert going to just pony up the money and buy the damn team?

wildcats20;1177155 wrote:I would say it's a combo of what Mooney said and definitely the ownership.

When is Gilbert going to just pony up the money and buy the damn team?

lol

I mean it wouldn't be an overnight change in the team, but within 3 years he would have them competing again. Just like he will with the Cavs.