lhslep134;1082227 wrote:Of course he saw it, of course he ignored it. He has no concept of how to argue.

'When you see direct contradiction, ignore it and continue to post as if you didn't see'
-Skyhook

Brandt didn't say it was the only way they could draft Richardson. Either way Brandt said the Browns NEED a RB whether they can draft him with the 4th pick or if they have to move down he is saying they should use their 1st pick on a RB and Richardson is that RB.

What Brandt says: "I probably would move down if I wanted to draft him"

What he doesn't say is that the Browns need to pick a running back with their first pick. Needing one and needing to draft one with their first selection are two different things.

grodt;1082352 wrote:What Brandt says: "I probably would move down if I wanted to draft him"

What he doesn't say is that the Browns need to pick a running back with their first pick. Needing one and needing to draft one with their first selection are two different things.

What he does say is He would stick with MCCoy, so he is not taking RG3 and wouldn't ever spend a 4th pick on a wr. What does that leave?

Skyhook79;1082499 wrote:What he does say is He would stick with MCCoy, so he is not taking RG3 and wouldn't ever spend a 4th pick on a wr. What does that leave?

A TE, OT, OG, C, DE, DT, MLB, OLB, CB, S, K, P, Long snapper...did I miss any?

SportsAndLady;1082501 wrote:A TE, OT, OG, C, DE, DT, MLB, OLB, CB, S, K, P, Long snapper...did I miss any?

Not surprised.

[h=1]Terry Pluto's Talkin' ... about Colt McCoy and the West Coast Offense, the newest Cavalier and some Tribe spring-training tidbits[/h] [h=5]Published: Sunday, February 12, 2012, 4:25 AM Updated: Sunday, February 12, 2012, 4:28 AM[/h] By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
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Joshua Gunter, The Plain DealerOften given less than optimal amount of time in the pocket, Colt McCoy wasn't always able to go through the required progressions to run the West Coast Offense.

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Sure, we're getting a taste of winter, but there's plenty of sports talk to keep you warm.
About the West Coast Offense ...
1. The Browns believe Colt McCoy will be a more productive QB next season. They still are keeping their options open, but if they decide not to sign a free agent such as Matt Flynn or use the No. 4 pick for a quarterback, they are convinced McCoy will be better. It's because McCoy has been in three different offenses in three years -- at Texas, Browns under Brian Daboll, Browns under Pat Shurmur.
2. The West Coast offense is different. When a play is called, the quarterback has a structured progression: 1-2-3 options. He has a little less freedom than some offenses to find an open receiver, but WCO coaches believe the priority list of receivers on each play helps the quarterback make a quicker throw and operate with less confusion.
3. I was critical of the throws to Greg Little standing in the middle of the field, about five yards from the line of scrimmage. He usually caught the ball, and was blasted by the defense. The Browns say Little was often not the main receiver, he was there to occupy a safety as other receivers made cuts behind him. Think of a triangle, with Little in the middle.
4. What the Browns don't like to talk about is that those cutting receivers either -- A.) Didn't get open fast enough, B.) McCoy became impatient and threw to Little as a safety valve, or C.) The timing was off.
Obviously, there were different breakdowns. When Little was targeted 13 times in a loss to the Bengals -- a game where he had four drops -- it was not by design. McCoy went to Little so often because he believed Little was the only one open, not because he was No. 1 in the progression.
5. The Browns believe Little should be given credit for making some very tough catches, rather than dwelling on his 12 drops (No. 2 in the NFL). He led the team with 61 catches. He was in a new offense after having missed his final year at North Carolina because he took money from an agent. They are very upbeat about his future. In Mel Kiper's 2011 rookie rankings, the ESPN analyst ranked Little at No. 20, a real jump for being picked No. 59. Kiper wrote: "Little needs to become more consistent, but, after missing a year of football, he showed hints of future stardom -- he had seven more catches than [the Falcons'] Julio Jones." Among rookies, only the Bengals' A.J. Green (65) had more catches.
6. The Browns believe Little is their top receiver ... right now. They were impressed by how Joshua Cribbs improved. He caught a career-high 41 passes and led the team in catches of at least 20 yards. There were some rumors about Cribbs not returning in 2012, and that's ridiculous. The coaches love how he played well against teams such as Pittsburgh, along with his willingness to play special teams.
7. Jordan Norwood earned some respect for his play as a slot receiver, and he has chance to make the team next season. The Browns are hoping Carlton Mitchell can show something in the mini camps. Mitchell has the speed and physique (6-3, 220), but he's battled injuries and inexperience, having only three catches in two years.
8. Hard to know what to make of Mohamed Massaquoi, who had a foot injury and the second concussion of his pro career. Massaquoi has averaged 34 receptions over his first three seasons, and has been handed the starter's job each year.
9. While the Browns see value in Little and Cribbs, they know they must find a receiver with speed who is a real threat, not "just a track guy," as speed players with bad hands are known. Kiper has the Browns looking hard at Kendall Wright of Baylor. Dan Shonka of Ourlads.com, an NFL scouting service, also likes Wright for the Browns, comparing him to the Panthers' Steve Smith.
10. The Browns led the NFL last season with 43 dropped passes, and were 29th in pass plays of at least 25 yards. So it's not as if the dropped passes were a product of a big-play offense. Quarterback is an issue, but so are the receivers who must quickly get open and hang on to the ball.
About the Browns and football families ...
1. While some fans were bothered that the Browns hired Brad Childress as offensive coordinator because he's so close to Shurmur, Mike Holmgren, etc. ... well, that's how it works in the NFL. Josh McDaniels is back with Bill Belichick in New England, where he started his pro coaching career. McDaniels left to be head coach in Denver, then offensive coordinator in St. Louis. After being fired from both jobs, he returned to Belichick.
2. Brian Daboll is the new offensive coordinator in Kansas City. He is the former Browns offensive coordinator under Eric Mangini. Mangini and Daboll are part of the Belichick football family, although Mangini and Belichick clashed after "spygate" a few years ago.
3. So what does that have to do with Daboll in Kansas City? The Chiefs' general manager is Scott Pioli, who broke into football with Belichick. The head coach is Romeo Crennel. Before he was the Browns' head coach, Crennel was Belichick's defensive coordinator in New England. So Pioli and Crennel turned to Daboll, who did a nice job in Miami once Matt Moore took over as quarterback.
4. Crennel's associate head coach is Maurice Carthon, who worked with Crennel in Cleveland ... and that relationship eventually goes back to Belichick.
5. I can write a book about all the Belichick connections in the NFL, but Akron native Michael Holley already did, it's called "The War Room," and it's an excellent read. The Browns have switched football families. Phil Savage, Crennel and Mangini were in charge of the team from 2005-10, and they were from the Belichick tree, which really begins with Bill Parcells.
6. The other big NFL family is Holmgren (back to Bill Walsh) and the West Coast offense. In last week's notes, I laid the connection from Holmgren to Eagles coach Andy Reid to Shurmur and Childress. So we will see if the Browns can do better with this family.

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Richardson at #4 if RGIII isn't there. Mainly because he has top 5 talent and you pretty much need to take the best player available.

Y-Town Steelhound;1084772 wrote:I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Richardson at #4 if RGIII isn't there. Mainly because he has top 5 talent and you pretty much need to take the best player available.

Blahh.

like_that;1084797 wrote:Blahh.

Understandable and Blackmon would still be my first choice after RGIII. But who else is good enough to get picked that high? Claiborne? Coples? Who else would you take?

I would literally be happy with anyone (Claiborne, coples etc) at 4 than Richardson

I don't want Richardson or Blackmon at 4. Trade back and still get them. If we're picking at #4 I'd take Claiborne (assuming RG3 is off the board).

Y-Town Steelhound;1084802 wrote:Understandable and Blackmon would still be my first choice after RGIII. But who else is good enough to get picked that high? Claiborne? Coples? Who else would you take?

Not Coples, but I'd be fine with Claiborne. Lock up the secondary for 10 years. Blackman or Claiborne will be at 4. If no one is there, I would obviously look at trading down.

I have a feeling if the Browns don't take Richardson he will fall to the mid to late first round.

real talk. if rg3 is gone gimme claiborne. rbs are not worth top ten picks.

Well d jax is likely to get franchise tagged so there's another receiver gone from fa

Crimson streak;1084996 wrote:Well d jax is likely to get franchise tagged so there's another receiver gone from fa

Randy Moss wants to come back, we can take a shot at him lol.

like_that;1084997 wrote:Randy Moss wants to come back, we can take a shot at him lol.

lol, how long until he throws Chilly, McCoy and the food served at the Browns facility under the bus? I give it 2 days in TC.

Commander of Awesome;1085000 wrote:lol, how long until he throws Chilly, McCoy and the food served at the Browns facility under the bus? I give it 2 days in TC.

With Bertman's Stadium Mustard, that is impossible.

seen an article last year that said they could franchise jackson and turn around and trade him. 2nd rounder?

I saw a mock draft saying the Browns get Griffin and Floyd in the first round. I don't think Floyd would be a good fit for the Browns, personally.

Floyd will catch everything thrown at him and was an absolutely dominant blocker his last two years at Notre Dame, but I don't think he has the speed to help the Browns. I think he will be a great possession receiver, but he does run a ~4.52. The Browns need an uber-fast guy on the edge to push back the guys in the box. Kendall Wright would be a good pickup for the Browns.

I like RG3 a lot, but I'm not sold on Colt McCoy being a bust just yet either.

Just playing Devil's Advocate, Larry Fitz only ran a 4.6 I believe and is around the same size as Floyd.

You always have to consider "game speed"...I know everyone looks at the 40 times, but some guys just have a different gear when they are between the lines playing the game.

OQB;1085268 wrote:You always have to consider "game speed"...I know everyone looks at the 40 times, but some guys just have a different gear when they are between the lines playing the game.

I'm a much bigger fan of speed on game tape. I'm fairly certain they don't play football in a 40 yd by 10 ft lane without pads. 40 times are nice, but I want to know if his game film shows a great job of creating separation.

Here is the article I was looking for...good info, based on draft history.


NFL QB Draft History: 2000-2011

sep 22, 2011

The rise and fall of an NFL team's destiny over the last decade is largely told in the accompanying article and attached chart (QBDraftHistory).

Observations from the last 12 NFL Drafts in Regards to QBs:

In 9 of the last 12 years a QB has been taken 1st overall. The years where they weren't were 2000, 2006 and 2008. 75% of the time a QB goes #1.

FIRST QB OFF THE BOARD
When considering the 1st QB taken off the board: 8 of the last 12 have "worked out" (subjective yes, but in my view) - (67%).
The one's that didn't: David Carr 2002, Alex Smith 2005, Vince Young 2006 and JaMarcus Russell 2007. I haven't given up on Vince Young- so it could be 9 of 12 (75%).

There is nothing 100% in this business. 67-75% is the closest you will ever get to a sure thing.

SECOND QB OFF THE BOARD
When considering the 2nd QB taken off the board: 6 of 12 have worked out and if we give Locker the benefit of the doubt- that is 7 of 12 or 58%. Not bad.
The one's that didn't pan were: Giovanni Carmazzi 2000, Joey Harrington 2002, Matt Leinart 2006, Brady Quinn 2007 and Tim Tebow 2010.

THIRD QB OFF THE BOARD
Getting uglier here. Can you really say Jason Campbell panned? I would say no. I will give Blaine Gabbert the benefit of the doubt and say Kevin Kolb panned out even though it's still early. 5 of 12 QBs were good picks from the 3rd QB off the board slot.

The winners? Big Ben Roethlisberger, Jay Cutler, Kevin Kolb, Josh Freeman and Blaine Gabbert. Success rate of 42%.

The rest? Chris Redman, Quinton Quarter, Patrick Ramsey, Kyle Boller, Jason Campbell, Brian Brohm, Jimmy Clausen. Then again, Campbell is a starter- so maybe the success rate is 50%.

FOURTH QB OFF THE BOARD
Yes to Rex Grossman? Uh...ok. Yes to Colt McCoy? Chad Henne? There is not a definite "good" NFL starter that was the 4th QB off the board in the last 12 years!

The for sure No group? Tee Martin, Matt Tuiasosopo, Josh Mccown, JP Losman, Charlie Frye, Kellen Clemens, John Beck, Pat White.

Let's just be nice and say that Henne, Grossman, Mccoy and Ponder are not busts. 4 of 12 here. 33%. Eeks.

FIFTH QB OFF THE BOARD
I say yes to Marc Bulger, David Garrard, Matt Schaub, and that's it. 3 of 12. 25%.

The no group: Chris Weinke, Dave Ragone, Andrew Walter, Tarvaris Jackson, Drew Stanton, Kevin O'Connell, Steven McGee, Mike Kafka and Andy Dalton. I know its still early on Dalton.



So in review- here are the rough numbers depending on how you classify the draft picks working out in terms of being a quality NFL Starting QB:

1st QB off the board: 67-75% success rate

2nd QB off the board: 50-58% success rate

3rd QB off the board: 42-50% success rate

4th QB off the board: 16-33% success rate

5th QB off the board: 25-33% success rate

See a pattern here?

If the Seahawks would have drafted a QB in 2011, he would have been the 5th QB off the board barring a trade up. I know every year is different and you can't go make calls based on history, but it is interesting to note.

OTHER TIDBITS
--Of the 15 second round QBs drafted in the last 12 years, only one is a legit star: Drew Brees, and only 4 more are starters in the NFL (Tarvaris Jackson, Kevin Kolb, Chad Henne, Andy Dalton). Pretty low success rate in the 2nd round.

--If the Draft were held today, Brees would have been drafted in Round 1. In 2001 there were only 31 picks in the 1st Round and he was pick 32.

--There are nine Starting Quarterbacks (28%) in the NFL that were not drafted in Rounds 1 or 2:

Matt Hasselbeck - Rd 6
Tom Brady - Rd 6
Tony Romo- Undrafted
Matt Schaub - Rd 3
Luke Mccown - Rd 4
Kyle Orton - Rd 4
Matt Cassel - Rd 7
Ryan Fitzpatrick - Rd 7
Colt Mccoy - Rd 3

-- There are five NFL Starters that were drafted in 2004 (Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Schaub, Luke Mccown).

-- There are six NFL Starters that were drafted in 2005- most of any year (Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, Kyle Orton, Matt Cassel and Ryan Fitzpatrick)

-- Tarvaris Jackson was the 5th QB off the board in 2006 and Charlie Whitehurst was the 6th QB off the board.

-- In three of the last twelve years, four QBs have been drafted in Round 1: 2003, 2004 and 2011.

-- In four of the last twelve years, three QBs have been drafted in Round 1: 2002, 2005, 2006 and 2009.

-- 18 of 32 NFL Starters were 1st rd Draft Picks- or 56%.

-- There have been 32 QBs drafted in Round 1 in the last 12 years for an average of 2.67 per year.

Gabbert and Kolb are successes but Alex Smith isn't?

bases_loaded;1085470 wrote:Gabbert and Kolb are successes but Alex Smith isn't?

The article was from September 22, 2011. Are you going to tell me that before this year Alex Smith wasn't a bust? I mean I will agree with you that I don't get how Gabbert and Kolb were successes especially Gabbert(I understand he gave him the benefit of the doubt but thats just a dumb thing to do). I think before this year we would have said Kolb > Smith. Obviously this year changed that.

Some pretty interesting information there CoA great article.