This is a good start for what we as a country need to be working on.

Pick6;735067 wrote:This is a good start for what we as a country need to be working on.

Sort of. I mean if you are going for a shutdown, go for a shutdown, don't half way it. Shutdown everything, SS, Medicare payments, TSA, Air Traffic controls, the borders, and all personal except Defense and Intelligence. That would really do a difference and hurt people.


Also, think about, did the 95 shutdown really help us? No, because we didn't learn the lessons and really spent out way into this mess in the 2000s.

Writerbuckeye;734964 wrote:The poll tonight on NBC clearly showed the public wants the Democrats to compromise more than the Republicans. Especially among independents, the vote was something like 70 percent in favor of Democrats compromising.

We'll see if anyone is listening.

Compromise means compromise, not doing exactly what the Republicans want though.

ptown_trojans_1;735078 wrote:Sort of. I mean if you are going for a shutdown, go for a shutdown, don't half way it. Shutdown everything, SS, Medicare payments, TSA, Air Traffic controls, the borders, and all personal except Defense and Intelligence. That would really do a difference and hurt people.

How is that a good thing?

ptown_trojans_1;734874 wrote:That said, when there is a shutdown, both sides are going to spend so much political capital for just 5 months of budget that Ryan's budget will have no support, none.

By the time people get to Ryan's budget, it will be December going into January of next year, and guess what that is 2012 and election year, meaning no one will have the guts to make the cuts.

My faith in the political system is at an all time low right now, for both sides and the President.

Took you long enough. Welcome aboard!

I Wear Pants;735204 wrote:Compromise means compromise, not doing exactly what the Republicans want though.

C'mon IWP. Seriously?? The Dems have "fail to compromise" down to an art form. WTF do you think this past election was all about?

I Wear Pants;735204 wrote:Compromise means compromise, not doing exactly what the Republicans want though.

C'mon IWP. Seriously?? The Dems have "fail to compromise" down to an art form. WTF do you think this past election was all about?

I Wear Pants;735204 wrote:Compromise means compromise, not doing exactly what the Republicans want though.



How is that a good thing?

First point, true.
Second point, it hurts all people and will force the politicians to actually work together and not use political BS in order to temp. fix the problem.

The Democrats have been playing "the party of no" song for so long and walking away from every effort by Republicans to compromise when they (Dems) held a huge advantage in Congress that they've forgotten how to actually try and work together.

Outright rejecting EVERYTHING the Republicans have put on the table is not compromise. It's not even starting the process of compromise.

Yet the Republicans still get the blame in the media...and by some on here.

Since the Republicans have a proposal on the table, doesn't protocol dictate the Dems come back with some sort of alternative that incorporates what both groups want?

I don't think I've seen that, or have I missed it?

Writerbuckeye;735572 wrote:The Democrats have been playing "the party of no" song for so long and walking away from every effort by Republicans to compromise when they (Dems) held a huge advantage in Congress that they've forgotten how to actually try and work together.

Outright rejecting EVERYTHING the Republicans have put on the table is not compromise. It's not even starting the process of compromise.

Yet the Republicans still get the blame in the media...and by some on here.

Since the Republicans have a proposal on the table, doesn't protocol dictate the Dems come back with some sort of alternative that incorporates what both groups want?

I don't think I've seen that, or have I missed it?

I thought the Dems wanted to cut 30 some billion and the Pubs 60 some? Wouldn't that be a proposal?

And Writer, are you serious? Some Republicans/Tea Party folk campaigned on the idea of voting "no" to every Democrat bill.

Now, that does not excuse the Dems for when they do or have failed to compromise though. So don't think that's what I'm saying.

believer;735232 wrote:Took you long enough. Welcome aboard!



C'mon IWP. Seriously?? The Dems have "fail to compromise" down to an art form. WTF do you think this past election was all about?

Don't know, couldn't tell between all the "they're trying to kill Amurica", "MUSLIMSSSSS!!!", "Birth Certificate", "SOCIALISM FASCISM COMMUNISM", "Trying to abort all your babies" talk from the Right and the "gonna enslave us to the corporations bro" and "hate the little guy" bullshit from the Left. I honestly don't know what the hell the election was all about other than a bunch of bologna.

I'm becoming more and more disenchanted by the day with just about everyone. And not because I don't agree with some of the ideas one or both parties put out (lately I've been siding with the Dems, well some of them, more than the Republicans) but just because they put out some things I agree with doesn't mean I think they have good intentions or anything.

It's increasingly becoming my opinion that everyone involved with politics in the least is either incredibly stupid or incredibly evil. No middle ground is possible with the type of idiotic policies and ideas that come from both sides these days.

I Wear Pants;735735 wrote:Don't know, couldn't tell between all the "they're trying to kill Amurica", "MUSLIMSSSSS!!!", "Birth Certificate", "SOCIALISM FASCISM COMMUNISM", "Trying to abort all your babies" talk from the Right and the "gonna enslave us to the corporations bro" and "hate the little guy" bullshit from the Left. I honestly don't know what the hell the election was all about other than a bunch of bologna.

I'm becoming more and more disenchanted by the day with just about everyone. And not because I don't agree with some of the ideas one or both parties put out (lately I've been siding with the Dems, well some of them, more than the Republicans) but just because they put out some things I agree with doesn't mean I think they have good intentions or anything.

It's increasingly becoming my opinion that everyone involved with politics in the least is either incredibly stupid or incredibly evil. No middle ground is possible with the type of idiotic policies and ideas that come from both sides these days.

To your last statement- forget about the whining/continuing resolution/2011 budget/government shutdown debate that this thread turned into.
Don't you think Paul Ryan's proposal is the antithesis of "incredibly stupid or incredibly evil" and "idiotic policies and ideas that come from both sides"?

Seems to me that putting yourself out there with real solutions that really tackle the deficit is responsible and should be applauded, no matter which party comes up with the idea. Throwing out a 10-year softball plan with $1 Trill in cuts (when Obamacare hasn't even kicked in yet) does practically nothing to solve our problems. And predictably, the party that didn't (or refuses to) come up with real solutions stands on the sidelines and tries to score political points while the financial well-being of our country goes up in flames.

I refuse to subscribe to the "Both parties are terrible", "All politicians are the same", "Everyone in government is stupid and evil" nonsense (not saying that's your position, IWP). I thought Paul Ryan's proposal indicated at least one person (who has some reputation for intellect and commands some respect in Washington) gets that we won't last long as a nation the way things are going now.

jhay78;735761 wrote:To your last statement- forget about the whining/continuing resolution/2011 budget/government shutdown debate that this thread turned into.
Don't you think Paul Ryan's proposal is the antithesis of "incredibly stupid or incredibly evil" and "idiotic policies and ideas that come from both sides"?

I don't know...what would you call proposing a budget that purports that we will have unemployment as low as 2.8% by 2020 when that has only ever happened in the United States in WWII and the Korean War and acting as if it's a serious proposal? It's either incredibly stupid or evil.

I Wear Pants;735724 wrote:I thought the Dems wanted to cut 30 some billion and the Pubs 60 some? Wouldn't that be a proposal?

And Writer, are you serious? Some Republicans/Tea Party folk campaigned on the idea of voting "no" to every Democrat bill.

Now, that does not excuse the Dems for when they do or have failed to compromise though. So don't think that's what I'm saying.

There's nothing wrong with campaigning to stop every SPENDING bill...and I believe that's what the Tea Party folks were doing. Saying "no" to bad spending is the right thing to do if you honestly believe we have a budget crisis, like so many of us do.

As for the Dem proposal cutting $30 billion, I had not heard about it -- but just found a piece from two days ago that says they're proposing cutting a whopping $6.5 billion (compared to the $60 billion in cuts Republicans are proposing).

It took them until two days ago after WEEKS of slamming the republican proposal to finally come up with something on the eve of the shutdown, and it's only one tenth of the original proposal? I don't see that as much of a compromise, and it certainly took them too long to get out there as the deadline approached -- even when they had time to assail what Republicans wanted to do.

Writerbuckeye;735791 wrote:There's nothing wrong with campaigning to stop every SPENDING bill...and I believe that's what the Tea Party folks were doing. Saying "no" to bad spending is the right thing to do if you honestly believe we have a budget crisis, like so many of us do.

As for the Dem proposal cutting $30 billion, I had not heard about it -- but just found a piece from two days ago that says they're proposing cutting a whopping $6.5 billion (compared to the $60 billion in cuts Republicans are proposing).

It took them until two days ago after WEEKS of slamming the republican proposal to finally come up with something on the eve of the shutdown, and it's only one tenth of the original proposal? I don't see that as much of a compromise, and it certainly took them too long to get out there as the deadline approached -- even when they had time to assail what Republicans wanted to do.

In IWP's defense, I seem to recall the 30 billion figure tossed out at some point as well.

jhay78;735761 wrote:Seems to me that putting yourself out there with real solutions that really tackle the deficit is responsible and should be applauded, no matter which party comes up with the idea. Throwing out a 10-year softball plan with $1 Trill in cuts (when Obamacare hasn't even kicked in yet) does practically nothing to solve our problems. And predictably, the party that didn't (or refuses to) come up with real solutions stands on the sidelines and tries to score political points while the financial well-being of our country goes up in flames. ..........

I thought Paul Ryan's proposal indicated at least one person (who has some reputation for intellect and commands some respect in Washington) gets that we won't last long as a nation the way things are going now.

My feelings as well. I'll give Ryan kudos - not because he's Republican - but because he laid a real plan on the table despite the possible political ramifications.

That's courage in today's political environment.

believer;735832 wrote:My feelings as well. I'll give Ryan kudos - not because he's Republican - but because he laid a real plan on the table despite the possible political ramifications.

That's courage in today's political environment.

It is not a real plan. I don't think numbers could get more obfuscated than the CBO's projects for the Affordable Care Act but once again Republicans, the Republican Golden-Boy no less, have taken it to new levels. His numbers presuppose that spending on everything else, including the military, will be cut in half in 10 years and that unemployment will be below 3% in 10 years and that healthcare spending will grow with normal inflation...This only deserves kudos if he considers it a work of fiction.

I brought up the 2011 spending bill/ shutdown because it means the Ryan bill is DOA. If members of Congress are taking this long to work on the previous years budget and are spending this much capital for just 5 months, there is no way they will ever agree on any of the Ryan measures.
By the time they really get to Ryan's budget it will be 2012, and no politician will be willing to agree to huge cuts in an election year.

Ryan's budget has some good ideas, but given the political climate, it is never going to happen. What makes people think that they can agree on such cuts if they can;t agree on a 5 month budget? It's DOA. (Not unless there is a radical change from the current political environment, and I doubt that.)

I originally supported this plan but, after further review, I have to give it two thumbs-down. I like the idea of cutting the budget, but he also wants to cut revenue to the point where the budget will not be balanced until 2040. The way some of you "sky is falling" folks tell it, we don't have that long. Because of that, Ryan is a great big fail.


Whoops. I got that wrong. It doesn't balance until the 2060's. That's a little too long for me.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/mar/03/matt-miller/matt-miller-blasts-deficit-debt-implications-paul-/

For the love of god, can just one Republican propose something that cuts spending without basically getting rid of any and all revenue? I'd support it.

But cutting how much I spend doesn't help me one bit if I cut how much I make as well.

ptown_trojans_1;735878 wrote:I brought up the 2011 spending bill/ shutdown because it means the Ryan bill is DOA. If members of Congress are taking this long to work on the previous years budget and are spending this much capital for just 5 months, there is no way they will ever agree on any of the Ryan measures.
By the time they really get to Ryan's budget it will be 2012, and no politician will be willing to agree to huge cuts in an election year. Ryan's budget has some good ideas, but given the political climate, it is never going to happen. What makes people think that they can agree on such cuts if they can;t agree on a 5 month budget? It's DOA. (Not unless there is a radical change from the current political environment, and I doubt that.)

I'm not so sure about that. I'm all for making this a central issue in the 2012 campaign. Of course the Ryan bill is going nowhere now, but it's setting up a much-needed debate, and exposing the demagoguery that's coming up in opposition to it.

BoatShoes;735833 wrote:It is not a real plan. I don't think numbers could get more obfuscated than the CBO's projects for the Affordable Care Act but once again Republicans, the Republican Golden-Boy no less, have taken it to new levels. His numbers presuppose that spending on everything else, including the military, will be cut in half in 10 years and that unemployment will be below 3% in 10 years and that healthcare spending will grow with normal inflation...This only deserves kudos if he considers it a work of fiction.

You Lefties who have absolutely NO PLAN to right the fiscal ship are the first to slam ANYTHING the opposition proposes because cutting government spending is completely against your Big Government is good government ideological forced redistribution of wealth nature.

jhay78;735984 wrote:I'm not so sure about that. I'm all for making this a central issue in the 2012 campaign. Of course the Ryan bill is going nowhere now, but it's setting up a much-needed debate, and exposing the demagoguery that's coming up in opposition to it.

I agree and it MUST be debated. The future of this country depends on it.

believer;736002 wrote:You Lefties who have absolutely NO PLAN to right the fiscal ship are the first to slam ANYTHING the opposition proposes because cutting government spending is completely against your Big Government is good government ideological forced redistribution of wealth nature.



I agree and it MUST be debated. The future of this country depends on it.

Agghh. Plenty of people have plans including liberals that are grounded in reality and they are out there for you to read with a simple google search. I mean here's a link to a guy at the place Ptown works offering a suggestion. http://http://www.businessinsider.com/john-carney-new-america-foundation-urges-us-to-inflate-our-way-out-of-ebt-2009-9. You may not like his plan but it at least, from my quick look over it, uses somewhat realistic numbers and isn't a fantasy. Mr. Ryan's plan is nothing of the sort. It is about as realistic as Alice in Wonderland. What did I say that is false about Mr. Ryan's plan? This is supposed to be the man, the serious thinker of the G.O.P. and he proposes a genie in a magic lamp.

Edit: FWIW I agree with you the democrats in Congress at least have offered nothing. It is shameful that they did not pass a budget for FY 2011 when they had a supermajority because they were worried about the election!! As if they thought they weren't going to get their asses handed to them! Truly, truly shameful and embarassing. But, that doesn't mean that we should accept totally phony budgets like Mr. Ryan's either.

jhay78;735984 wrote:I'm not so sure about that. I'm all for making this a central issue in the 2012 campaign. Of course the Ryan bill is going nowhere now, but it's setting up a much-needed debate, and exposing the demagoguery that's coming up in opposition to it.

The only debate this sets up in my mind is how we allow democrats and republicans to go out in public and trump up these bills with totally outrageous numbers and let the media spew it back to us with little to no digging. I mean, random bloggers are doing the jobs that journalists should be doing.

jhay78;735984 wrote:I'm not so sure about that. I'm all for making this a central issue in the 2012 campaign. Of course the Ryan bill is going nowhere now, but it's setting up a much-needed debate, and exposing the demagoguery that's coming up in opposition to it.

believer;736002 wrote:I agree and it MUST be debated. The future of this country depends on it.

No chance any politician will take that big a risk on drastic cuts in an election year. If you think they are fighting this hard for a very small bit of the budget that is for 5 months, next year's is going to be worse. Add to that the Senate won't move anything on Ryan's budget and we will be in the same place next year.

BoatShoes;736020 wrote:Agghh. Plenty of people have plans including liberals that are grounded in reality and they are out there for you to read with a simple google search. I mean here's a link to a guy at the place Ptown works offering a suggestion. http://http://www.businessinsider.com/john-carney-new-america-foundation-urges-us-to-inflate-our-way-out-of-ebt-2009-9. You may not like his plan but it at least, from my quick look over it, uses somewhat realistic numbers and isn't a fantasy. Mr. Ryan's plan is nothing of the sort. It is about as realistic as Alice in Wonderland. What did I say that is false about Mr. Ryan's plan? This is supposed to be the man, the serious thinker of the G.O.P. and he proposes a genie in a magic lamp.

Edit: FWIW I agree with you the democrats in Congress at least have offered nothing. It is shameful that they did not pass a budget for FY 2011 when they had a supermajority because they were worried about the election!! As if they thought they weren't going to get their asses handed to them! Truly, truly shameful and embarassing. But, that doesn't mean that we should accept totally phony budgets like Mr. Ryan's either.

Ehh, I never was a fan of Chris's work. I agreed with some of it, but other people's work at the Foundation were a little better in my view. BTW, I left there last month for the private sector.

the wealth is getting spread right to the top.

ptown_trojans_1;736504 wrote:No chance any politician will take that big a risk on drastic cuts in an election year. If you think they are fighting this hard for a very small bit of the budget that is for 5 months, next year's is going to be worse. Add to that the Senate won't move anything on Ryan's budget and we will be in the same place next year.

This is the type of political cowardice on the part of DC politicians that will eventually doom the country to complete financial chaos and relegate this great country to second-class rather than world-class status for future generations.