isadore;1695384 wrote:there should be no fees, there should be no pay to play. Hey that definition 100 years ago with have been for elementary education but it evolved, and now it is taking the next natural step to post secondary education.

participating in something is a right either. Its a privilege.

what isaderp doesn't understand is that a college degree CANNOT be downgraded by giving them to everyone.

Spock;1695407 wrote:what isaderp doesn't understand is that a college degree CANNOT be downgraded by giving them to everyone.

Exactly then what happens? Burger flippers have bachelors and regular people have Doctorates.

Spock;1695407 wrote:what isaderp doesn't understand is that a college degree CANNOT be downgraded by giving them to everyone.

It's a waste of resources for people who either can't do it or really don't need the degree (i.e. burger flippers).

And it's not like buying a car that depreciates - it's an investment in yourself, one that pays back the cost ten-fold. There's no need for additional public assistance so long as affordable loans are available in abundance (and they are).

And it HAS watered down the value of a bachelors, to the point where to really get ahead in most fields now requires a masters. That's really a hidden burden in all this.

Spock;1695407 wrote:what isaderp doesn't understand is that a college degree CANNOT be downgraded by giving them to everyone.

Too late...the college degree has been downgraded for several years now. Too many schools. Too many watered-down degrees. Not enough entry-level positions (i.e., everyone fighting for "minimum wage" jobs to be "living-wage" jobs). Too many jobs/careers requiring RIDICULOUS degrees in order to do the work (i.e., ministry requiring a Master's, teaching requiring a Master's, nursing requiring a Bachelor's, etc.). Lower the requirement level, allow people to make the money without paying it all off for the credentials that have minimal meaning anymore.

Maybe, just maybe, allow for more careers to become "technical" careers. Go to school to just be that career, not necessarily get all the other stuff that may not be needed for the career. That's how costs are cut and professional development is affordable.

http://blog.collegedebtfreedom.com/185/sallie-mae-forced-to-pay-back-200-million-to-student-borrowers/pi

Like someone had stated before and like the above post I like this proposal for technical colleges. The whole "take out student loans" that people are throwing out there is hilarious. Student loan debt is at record levels and defaults have just slowed down in 2014. But I get it since you're in debt everyone should be.

Average debt of $29k? That's the cost of a decent car. Ohhhhhhhhh, the HUMANITY!!!!!!

That's a payment of like $250 a month. If you can't easily swing that with a college degree you did it wrong.

gut;1695453 wrote:Average debt of $29k? That's the cost of a decent car. Ohhhhhhhhh, the HUMANITY!!!!!!

That's a payment of like $250 a month. If you can't easily swing that with a college degree you did it wrong.

Student loan debt is for people not smart enough to get a full academic ride.

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2015/01/kasich_administration_interest.html

Kasich administration looking into the idea.

gut;1695395 wrote:Agreed. There are literally millions of stupid people who college is not an option for.

and millions of others who lack the financial and social resources to obtain a post secondary education.

Spock;1695405 wrote:participating in something is a right either. Its a privilege.

"Participating in some is a right either. Its (sic) a privilege." Please translate.
In the 21st century post secondary education should become a right, as elementary education did in the 19th and secondary did in the 20th.

Spock;1695407 wrote:what isaderp doesn't understand is that a college degree CANNOT be downgraded by giving them to everyone.

Was elementary education degraded by giving it to everyone? Was secondary education degraded by giving it to everyone? No, society was made better by spreading knowledge and skill beyond a privileged few.

gut;1695428 wrote:It's a waste of resources for people who either can't do it or really don't need the degree (i.e. burger flippers).

And it's not like buying a car that depreciates - it's an investment in yourself, one that pays back the cost ten-fold. There's no need for additional public assistance so long as affordable loans are available in abundance (and they are).

And it HAS watered down the value of a bachelors, to the point where to really get ahead in most fields now requires a masters. That's really a hidden burden in all this.

Just another one of the privileged looking down their nose at working people, a elementary, then secondary, now post secondary education would be wasted on "those people"
the same arrogant attitude used to deprive blacks, Hispanics and working people of an education.

Why not fix some things in the k-12 system first? Give high school juniors/seniors the opportunity to take community college courses as their electives. It would give students an idea of what the expectations would be and it could just incorporate tax dollars that are already there.

Al Bundy;1695469 wrote:Why not fix some things in the k-12 system first? Give high school juniors/seniors the opportunity to take community college courses as their electives. It would give students an idea of what the expectations would be and it could just incorporate tax dollars that are already there.

I like this idea very much. You do have several cities that have "early colleges", which allows students to get an associates as well as their hs diploma.

there are programs that allow High School students to take college courses for credit.
for example-
"The Post Secondary Enrollment Options (PSEO) program is a "dual enrollment program" where high school students may enroll at a college and complete nonsectarian courses to earn both high school and college credit. Students in grades nine through twelve attending traditional public schools, community schools, STEM schools, and nonpublic schools, as well as homeschooled students are eligible to participate."
http://education.ohio.gov/Topics/School-Choice/Post-Secondary-Enrollment-Options-PSEO

rmolin73;1695470 wrote:I like this idea very much. You do have several cities that have "early colleges", which allows students to get an associates as well as their hs diploma.

Exactly. So students who are serious about school can already get a good portion of their college education covered. I know that some of these programs vary by state, but in many states, the books and other supplies are covered for the student.

How about adding additional year to high school. Those wanting to be serious about getting advanced education can take freshman college classes, those wanting to take less geared classes community college can get their first year and those who choose to skill type education truck drive, cook, mechanist, beauty school drop out as example can get a little training, and those who choose to not attend .....any additional high school extra year shot on sight.

Belly35;1695476 wrote:How about adding additional year to high school. Those wanting to be serious about getting advanced education can take freshman college classes, those wanting to take less geared classes community college can get their first year and those who choose to skill type education truck drive, cook, mechanist, beauty school drop out as example can get a little training, and those who choose to not attend .....any additional high school extra year shot on sight.

I think costs associated with this might be worse than Obama's plan. The four years is plenty of time. It just needs to be used more efficiently.

isadore;1695371 wrote:and there percentage support for college education continuously declines

The percentage may but the total dollars spent has increased.

isadore;1695386 wrote:the same argument could have been made in the not so distant past against providing secondary education. society has advanced in the educational needs of the citizen.

I didn't make an argument. I asked a question.

Where is it defined as a basic right to receive "free" collegiate level services?

I am open to learnign that this is indeed a right but can't find it legally stated as so.

isadore;1695366 wrote:why should middle class folks pay for rich kids to go to elementary and secondary school? Public education is funded by tax dollars of the citizenry to provide that service to all. Post secondary education should be part of public education.

I think society agreed for them to.

I don't think society has agreed to have them pay for collegiate level services which as far as I can tell is considered more than a basic education.

isadore;1695384 wrote:there should be no fees, there should be no pay to play. Hey that definition 100 years ago with have been for elementary education but it evolved, and now it is taking the next natural step to post secondary education.

...what should be isn't necessarily so. There are fees. If when considering the reports regarding the importance of early childhood education it would seem the money being discussed would be better spent on that. There are "public schools" today that either don't provide kindergarten or charge for it.

Just because you say there shouldn't be any charge doesn't make it so.

isadore;1695386 wrote:the same argument could have been made in the not so distant past against providing secondary education. society has advanced in the educational needs of the citizen.

Don't be so sure about that. Society hasn't pushed their representatives to put free collegiate services through legislatively.

I think you are speaking wishfully as opposed to reality.

rmolin73;1695449 wrote:http://blog.collegedebtfreedom.com/185/sallie-mae-forced-to-pay-back-200-million-to-student-borrowers/pi

Like someone had stated before and like the above post I like this proposal for technical colleges. The whole "take out student loans" that people are throwing out there is hilarious. Student loan debt is at record levels and defaults have just slowed down in 2014. But I get it since you're in debt everyone should be.

Big generalisation here. I never took a student loan out and I support those who think they are increasing their marketability from their education to be able to pay loans for said education. It has nothing to do with "since I went into debt, everyone should. That's garbage.

I have a problem with people taking out student loans for living expenses. That poor financial decision making. You don't go into debt for operating expenses. There's no return on that investment. I understand taking a loan for the educational services to increase your market value but to do so for living expenses isn't very smart.