Bud Selig to pardon Pete Rose?

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Serious Business ▸ Bud Selig to pardon Pete Rose?
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Jun 19, 2014 5:12 PM
like_that;1628004 wrote:Don't mind the fact that everyone disagrees with him on this thread. He is obviously the smartest poster on this site, thus none of the arguments presented are credible. /sarcasm
I really think he believes he's that smart. Would love to buy the guy for his actual value and sell him for his self-perceived worth.
Jun 19, 2014 5:12pm
J

jmog

Senior Member

6,567 posts
Jun 19, 2014 5:38 PM
sherm03;1627985 wrote:That's not that huge of a gap.

And again, Gwynn played for 20 seasons. His best year in terms of number of hits was 220. Give him that for 4 more years and he's still 230+ hits from reaching Rose's record. Williams played for 19 seasons. His best year for hits was 194. Give him that for 5 more years and he's 632 away from Rose's record.

I'm not going to say that Rose is better than Gwynn or Williams. But I will say that to downplay Rose's record by saying he was only able to get it because he played a long time is just stupid.
Williams is 7th, Gwynn is 18th, and Rose is 172nd in all time batting average. Please tell me again how that isn't a huge gap?

Gwynn and Williams are surrounded by all time greats, first ballot HoFers like Nap, Ruth, Cobb, etc. Rose is surrounded by players no one has ever heard of. That's the difference.

He has the most hits because he played more games per season, and played longer. That is longevity. I agree that based on his career he should be in the HoF. I was just disputing the comment that he was the greatest hitter of all time. He isn't even real close.

Gwynn's career average is .338. Rose only hit that well in a season 3 times in 24 years.
Do the same comparison with Williams and Rose only hit Williams career average in a season (.344) ONCE in 24 seasons.

It is a huge freaking gap and anyone who doesn't understand that honestly doesn't understand the game of baseball.
Jun 19, 2014 5:38pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jun 19, 2014 7:57 PM
sherm03;1627999 wrote: If that is the resume of a borderline HOF'er, then there should be only a handful of people in the HOF.
You pretty much just described Hines Ward. Dominant blocker, hardnosed player, dominant 3rd down receiver, SB MVP...Great singles hitter, great football player. I'm just offering Ward up as a comparison for you guys to think about someone without the emotion involved.

Again, there are 211 MLB in the HOF. Rose is 150th in batting average. He's not on the radar in home runs, which would knock him down more than a few pegs as far as hitters. Then you have pitchers. That puts you in territory that would typically be defined as marginal/borderline.
Jun 19, 2014 7:57pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jun 19, 2014 7:59 PM
jmog;1628016 wrote: He has the most hits because he played more games per season, and played longer. That is longevity. I agree that based on his career he should be in the HoF. I was just disputing the comment that he was the greatest hitter of all time. He isn't even real close.
Exactly. He was a really good player for a really long time. I think that should matter, but a lot of people don't view longevity as having merit in HOF discussions.
Jun 19, 2014 7:59pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jun 19, 2014 8:01 PM
queencitybuckeye;1628006 wrote:I really think he believes he's that smart.
It's not a belief.
Jun 19, 2014 8:01pm
Rotinaj's avatar

Rotinaj

Senior Member

7,699 posts
Jun 19, 2014 8:01 PM
STFU about fucking home runs already. It makes you sound like an even bigger dipshit every time you bring it up.
Jun 19, 2014 8:01pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jun 19, 2014 8:04 PM
Rotinaj;1628053 wrote:STFU about fucking home runs already. It makes you sound like an even bigger dipshit every time you bring it up.
LMFAO...yeah, home runs have no merit in this discussion. Hitting is only about slap singles. And I'm the dipshit, lol you must make your parents proud.
Jun 19, 2014 8:04pm
Rotinaj's avatar

Rotinaj

Senior Member

7,699 posts
Jun 19, 2014 8:14 PM
Please try and find a credible person with the same opinion as you. I'd love to see what they had to say.
Jun 19, 2014 8:14pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

Senior Member

35,632 posts
Jun 19, 2014 8:39 PM
Gut strikes again. What a clown.
Jun 19, 2014 8:39pm
like_that's avatar

like_that

1st Team All-PWN

26,625 posts
Jun 19, 2014 9:27 PM
Gut obviously never watches baseball.
Jun 19, 2014 9:27pm
Ironman92's avatar

Ironman92

Administrator

49,363 posts
Jun 19, 2014 9:29 PM
gut;1627986 wrote:Hines Ward is 9th all-time in receptions, 21st in receiving yards, 42 in TD's, 66 in all-purpose yards, 156th in points scored....

Rose is something like 150th in career average, and maybe the true Ironman. Otherwise he doesn't really register on the greatness scale in any other regard. If you're going to compare the entire body of work relative to other hitters, Rose is a borderline HOFer - great singles hitter (something a lot of people would describe Ward as) who was consistently good for a long time, with a few great years.

Both are known as fierce, hard-nosed competitors. It's a very good comparison, you're just looking at the two thru rose-colored glasses.

Rose was a good hitter who accumulated a ridiculous amounts of hits because he played for an incredibly long time with incredible durability (which is a really weak HOF criteria, whether we agree on that or not). Since Gwynn was mentioned - Rose maybe only played a few more years but played 60% more games.
Nice comparison again. For Ward you use cumulative stats and for Rose you use a %....playing 4-5 extra years didn't help compile that stat lol.

Playing everyday every year is a positive thing if I've ever seen one.
Jun 19, 2014 9:29pm
like_that's avatar

like_that

1st Team All-PWN

26,625 posts
Jun 19, 2014 9:34 PM
Ironman92;1628068 wrote:Nice comparison again. For Ward you use cumulative stats and for Rose you use a %....playing 4-5 extra years didn't help compile that stat lol.

Playing everyday every year is a positive thing if I've ever seen one.
He has been pwned by every possible fact on this thread. The dude eats his own shit he is so full of himself.

Let the guy stroke himself thinking he has outsmarted this thread, HOF players, and HOF journalists who say rose is easily a HOFer.
Jun 19, 2014 9:34pm
Ironman92's avatar

Ironman92

Administrator

49,363 posts
Jun 19, 2014 9:35 PM
212 hits in a season.....every year that happens, whoever did it had a great year.

If a player came up and had 20 years (fucking 20) of 212 hits every year.....he'd still be behind Rose.

There are compiled statistics (see Cal Ripken, Harold Baines, Craig Biggio) and then there's incredible compiled stats (Pete Rose, Rickey Henderson, Nolan Ryan).....

The Hines Ward stuff is just silly.
Jun 19, 2014 9:35pm
HitsRus's avatar

HitsRus

Senior Member

9,206 posts
Jun 19, 2014 9:49 PM
I didn't know the HOF limited induction only to power hitters.
To consider Rose a 'borderline' HoF'er because Ted Williams and Tony Gwynn were better hitters...LOL. The Hall of Fame is for the best PLAYERS and Rose was one of the best at many facets of the game....3000+ hits only part of his legacy.
Shame on anyone who discounts durability and longevity, because it is one of the most vital of assets to a team. You might be absolutuly the most fanastic player, but if you are spending 1/3 of the season on the DL, are you really that valuable?
Jun 19, 2014 9:49pm
Ironman92's avatar

Ironman92

Administrator

49,363 posts
Jun 19, 2014 10:02 PM
Billy Hamilton played 13 games last year.....let's say he plays 146 games this year as a rookie and then plays the next 21 strike-free seasons without missing a single game.....he'd still be short of what Rose did. It's incredible what Pete compiled.....and he did it by age 40. He did everything you had to do as a player, and well beyond.

Everyone likes to jump on the "oh he was the best in the game for 4 years"

3,000 hits is still a HOF 100% lock barring PED issues.

4256.....more than Barry Larkin + Lance Berkman
Jun 19, 2014 10:02pm
J

jmog

Senior Member

6,567 posts
Jun 19, 2014 10:23 PM
As a player, statistically Rose is a HOFer for sure. However, betting on the game is worse than PEDs, cocaine, being a horrible person, etc when it comes to integrity of the game.

Ty Cobb was a terrible person, but he never bet on the game (as we know).

Shoeless Joe Jackson was a better player than Rose, and he will never be in the HoF due to being part of the 1919 BlackSox.

It is the biggest rule in the game, don't gamble on it. If you don't understand that you don't understand the history of the game.
Jun 19, 2014 10:23pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

Senior Member

35,632 posts
Jun 19, 2014 10:26 PM
Didn't he bet on like 6 games, and never bet against his team?

it's not like he bet against the reds and then threw the game in order to make a buck.

Not condoning what he did, it was definitely wrong, but it wasn't the worst thing in the world to do.
Jun 19, 2014 10:26pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jun 19, 2014 10:27 PM
Ironman92;1628068 wrote:Nice comparison again. For Ward you use cumulative stats and for Rose you use a %.
I used their rankings....what's so difficult to understand about 9th in receptions vs. 153rd in batting average??? Do you not understand the difference between a percentage and ranking?
Jun 19, 2014 10:27pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

Senior Member

35,632 posts
Jun 19, 2014 10:28 PM
gut;1628087 wrote:I used their rankings....what's so difficult to understand about 9th in receptions vs. 153rd in batting average??? Do you not understand the difference between a percentage and ranking?
Lol
Jun 19, 2014 10:28pm
sherm03's avatar

sherm03

I go balls deep.

7,349 posts
Jun 20, 2014 12:25 AM
Guys...Willie Mays played for 22 years and was only a .302 hitter for his career. Can you believe they let him into the Hall Of Fame?! He's like, ranked near #200 in batting average! /gut'd
Jun 20, 2014 12:25am
sherm03's avatar

sherm03

I go balls deep.

7,349 posts
Jun 20, 2014 12:28 AM
Oh...and that bum Mickey Mantle. What was he...like a .298 hitter? Borderline HOF'er. /gut'd again
Jun 20, 2014 12:28am
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Jun 20, 2014 5:46 AM
gut;1628052 wrote:It's not a belief.
Correct, it's a delusion.
Jun 20, 2014 5:46am
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Jun 20, 2014 6:13 AM
jmog;1628016 wrote: Gwynn's career average is .338. Rose only hit that well in a season 3 times in 24 years.
Do the same comparison with Williams and Rose only hit Williams career average in a season (.344) ONCE in 24 seasons.

It is a huge freaking gap and anyone who doesn't understand that honestly doesn't understand the game of baseball.
While not saying your point isn't valid, comparing raw numbers from different generations can be somewhat misleading. For example, in 1968 (known as the year of the pitcher), Rose led the NL at .335 while Yaz won the AL title at .301. In the context of the time, someone hitting .335 would be the equivalent to someone hitting .350-.375 today.
Jun 20, 2014 6:13am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Jun 20, 2014 6:33 AM
Pete Rose, without the betting, would be a first ballot HOF'er. As others have mentioned the game was different in his era. With juiced balls, steroids and bandbox baseball stadiums it is hard for me to take any hitter's stats from the mid 90's to the mid-00's seriously.
Jun 20, 2014 6:33am
V

vball10set

paying it forward

24,795 posts
Jun 20, 2014 7:22 AM
Hines Ward is not, was not, and never will be a HOF'r, and to think any differently is just plain idiotic. Period.
Jun 20, 2014 7:22am