Bud Selig to pardon Pete Rose?

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O-Trap

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Jun 22, 2014 12:35 AM
I sympathize with wanting Ward in, but he shouldn't be. He'll be a remembered player, but what a player "would've" done on a different team shouldn't apply to their value as a Hall candidate.

As for Rose, I honestly don't care whether or not he's in. Make no mistake: I think he should be. I just don't care that he isn't.

I'm actually always surprised when I see how heated the discussion gets on this topic.

Jun 22, 2014 12:35am
G

gut

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Jun 22, 2014 2:00 AM
O-Trap;1628740 wrote: I'm actually always surprised when I see how heated the discussion gets on this topic
Exactly. Because Rose is a borderline great player that Cincy schmucks line-up to suck.
Jun 22, 2014 2:00am
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jmog

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Jun 22, 2014 8:49 AM
sherm03;1628109 wrote:Guys...Willie Mays played for 22 years and was only a .302 hitter for his career. Can you believe they let him into the Hall Of Fame?! He's like, ranked near #200 in batting average! /gut'd
No one said Mays was one of or the best hitter of all time.

Mays ya was one of the best defensive center fielders of all time.

Mays was also one of the best power hitters of all time that happened to be a great hitter too (.302 BA).

Mays is in the discussion for one of the best at his position of all time, one of the best power hitters, plus a great career BA.

He is not in the discussion for greatest hitter of all time like Williams and Gwynn. And, as you point out since Rose's career average is about the same as Mays, Rose is not in that discussion either.
Jun 22, 2014 8:49am
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Ironman92

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Jun 22, 2014 9:08 AM
This thread has a better chance for the HOF than Rose or Ward
Jun 22, 2014 9:08am
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sherm03

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Jun 22, 2014 9:19 AM
O-Trap;1628740 wrote:I'm actually always surprised when I see how heated the discussion gets on this topic.
gut;1628743 wrote:Exactly. Because Rose is a borderline great player that Cincy schmucks line-up to suck.
I think the people on this thread that disagree about Rose haven't been heated at all. The only heat is going towards gut for going full retard and making some of the dumbest comments on the subject possible.
jmog;1628756 wrote:No one said Mays was one of or the best hitter of all time.

Mays ya was one of the best defensive center fielders of all time.

Mays was also one of the best power hitters of all time that happened to be a great hitter too (.302 BA).

Mays is in the discussion for one of the best at his position of all time, one of the best power hitters, plus a great career BA.

He is not in the discussion for greatest hitter of all time like Williams and Gwynn. And, as you point out since Rose's career average is about the same as Mays, Rose is not in that discussion either.
Wait...now .302 is a great hitter? I was told earlier on this thread (not by you) that Pete Rose was not one of the best because his career BA ranked around #150 all-time. So he was average and was borderline for the HOF. So my whole point is, looking just at someone's career BA is not the best qualifier to decide whether or not someone should be in the Hall.
Jun 22, 2014 9:19am
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SportsAndLady

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Jun 22, 2014 9:35 AM
gut;1628743 wrote:Exactly. Because Rose is a borderline great player that Cincy schmucks line-up to suck.
You're trolling. Half the people on here calling you out aren't even Cincinnati fans.
Jun 22, 2014 9:35am
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jmog

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Jun 22, 2014 1:19 PM
sherm03;1628761 wrote:I think the people on this thread that disagree about Rose haven't been heated at all. The only heat is going towards gut for going full retard and making some of the dumbest comments on the subject possible.



Wait...now .302 is a great hitter? I was told earlier on this thread (not by you) that Pete Rose was not one of the best because his career BA ranked around #150 all-time. So he was average and was borderline for the HOF. So my whole point is, looking just at someone's career BA is not the best qualifier to decide whether or not someone should be in the Hall.
Being a great hitter and one of the best are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT statements.

Anyone that played a long time and have a lifetime BA over .300 was a great hitter. But barely over .300 is no where NEAR "one of the best".
Jun 22, 2014 1:19pm
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lhslep134

why so serious?

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Jun 25, 2014 1:25 PM
Terry Tate turned me on to this thread. I now present my reaction to Gut

[video=youtube;wKjxFJfcrcA][/video]
Jun 25, 2014 1:25pm
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Laley23

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Jun 25, 2014 1:42 PM
jmog;1628793 wrote:Being a great hitter and one of the best are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT statements.

Anyone that played a long time and have a lifetime BA over .300 was a great hitter. But barely over .300 is no where NEAR "one of the best".
What does Pete Roses average look like when you take away his years after 40? He had to be near a .320 guy. He was an all-time great hitter for the bulk of his career. The same reason people discount the amount of hits he recorded can be used to say why his average slipped.
Jun 25, 2014 1:42pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

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Jun 25, 2014 1:46 PM
Laley23;1629938 wrote:What does Pete Roses average look like when you take away his years after 40? He had to be near a .320 guy. He was an all-time great hitter for the bulk of his career. The same reason people discount the amount of hits he recorded can be used to say why his average slipped.
That's part of it. Another is using raw numbers across eras. Not that I'm saying Rose was a comparable hitter to Ted Williams (he wasn't), but .320 in the late 60's is every bit the equal to .350 in Ted's previous generation. Pete's time was the golden age of starting pitching.
Jun 25, 2014 1:46pm
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lhslep134

why so serious?

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Jun 25, 2014 2:06 PM
One of the best hitters could mean two things: bat talent, and statistically. They don't always go hand in hand but normally they do.

Rose is one of the best hitters of all time statistically. He's not in Gwynn's tier when it comes to bat talent, Gwynn's a top 4 hitter of all time when it comes to that.

EDIT: that's not to say Rose isn't up there, he definitely is. Between his bat talent and his stats, easily HOF.
Jun 25, 2014 2:06pm
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HitsRus

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Jun 25, 2014 2:43 PM
I'm sorry if it seems I'm repeating,, but it is silly to look at Rose and say he doesn't deserve to be in the hall because he doesn't compare to guys like Ted Williams, or that he didn't hit .350. The guy brought his own unique style and contributions to the game, not the least of which was his longevity, the all time hits leader, and a perennial all-star.
Jun 25, 2014 2:43pm
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lhslep134

why so serious?

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Jun 25, 2014 2:46 PM
HitsRus;1629971 wrote:I'm sorry if it seems I'm repeating,, but it is silly to look at Rose and say he doesn't deserve to be in the hall because he doesn't compare to guys like Ted Williams, or that he didn't hit .350. The guy brought his own unique style and contributions to the game, not the least of which was his longevity, the all time hits leader, and a perennial all-star.
Is that in response to any of the 3 previous posts? Because we all said he's easily in.
Jun 25, 2014 2:46pm
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HitsRus

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Jun 25, 2014 3:28 PM
^^^Nope that's for the guys who are in denial.
Jun 25, 2014 3:28pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

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Jun 25, 2014 3:42 PM
HitsRus;1630007 wrote:^^^Nope that's for the guys who are in denial.
although unless I missed someone else, there's only been one poster to foolishly put forth the notion that Rose's play isn't HOF-worthy.
Jun 25, 2014 3:42pm
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Terry_Tate

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Jun 26, 2014 12:09 AM
Laley23;1629938 wrote:What does Pete Roses average look like when you take away his years after 40? He had to be near a .320 guy. He was an all-time great hitter for the bulk of his career. The same reason people discount the amount of hits he recorded can be used to say why his average slipped.
Pete had a .310 average and 3,697 hits through his age 40 season. Stats nerd here so had to calculate that real quick, haha.
Jun 26, 2014 12:09am
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Laley23

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Jun 26, 2014 8:54 AM
Terry_Tate;1630223 wrote:Pete had a .310 average and 3,697 hits through his age 40 season. Stats nerd here so had to calculate that real quick, haha.
lol, thanks. I was way to lazy.

So, 697 more hits and .010 more points on BA then what is a gold standard for automatic inclusion...and this is before he started declining when the numbers started to slip/"get inflated to due playing so long" in his later years. So....explain to me how anyone makes the argument that isnt a 1st ballot HoFer???
Jun 26, 2014 8:54am
Devils Advocate's avatar

Devils Advocate

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Jun 26, 2014 9:58 AM
^^^ Because he bet on baseball dammit!

To the haters, there is no separation between Pete the player and Pete the manager.
Jun 26, 2014 9:58am
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Terry_Tate

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Jun 26, 2014 10:08 AM
Laley23;1630256 wrote:lol, thanks. I was way to lazy.

So, 697 more hits and .010 more points on BA then what is a gold standard for automatic inclusion...and this is before he started declining when the numbers started to slip/"get inflated to due playing so long" in his later years. So....explain to me how anyone makes the argument that isnt a 1st ballot HoFer???
Because he hit mostly singles!!!
Jun 26, 2014 10:08am
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Laley23

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Jun 26, 2014 10:19 AM
Terry_Tate;1630280 wrote:Because he hit mostly singles!!!
Ohhhhhh, that is true.

I change my mind.
Jun 26, 2014 10:19am
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Ironman92

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Jun 26, 2014 10:28 AM
He has several "hard to fathom" career stats. A player could have 20 seasons of 212 hits a year or 21 seasons of 202 hits every year and still fall short of Pete.

Reached base 5,929 times by hit, walk or HBP
Jun 26, 2014 10:28am
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jmog

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Jun 26, 2014 10:33 AM
Laley23;1629938 wrote:What does Pete Roses average look like when you take away his years after 40? He had to be near a .320 guy. He was an all-time great hitter for the bulk of his career. The same reason people discount the amount of hits he recorded can be used to say why his average slipped.
If you take out his last 5 years when he was over 40, his lifetime BA would be .311. Tony Gwynn only had a single season after his rookie year UNDER .311 (it was .309). So again, no, even playing math games with "taking away these years" Pete Rose was not NEAR the hitter Gwynn was, and Williams was even better.
Jun 26, 2014 10:33am
J

jmog

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Jun 26, 2014 10:35 AM
HitsRus;1629971 wrote:I'm sorry if it seems I'm repeating,, but it is silly to look at Rose and say he doesn't deserve to be in the hall because he doesn't compare to guys like Ted Williams, or that he didn't hit .350. The guy brought his own unique style and contributions to the game, not the least of which was his longevity, the all time hits leader, and a perennial all-star.
I am the one that has said he wasn't as good as Williams or Gwynn. I have also said that based on his game as a player (and statistics) he should be in the HoF. I have also said I understood why he was not due to the gambling.

The Williams/Gwynn comparison came from someone who said he was the best hitter of all time, which is no where near correct.
Jun 26, 2014 10:35am
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Laley23

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Jun 26, 2014 10:39 AM
jmog;1630292 wrote:If you take out his last 5 years when he was over 40, his lifetime BA would be .311. Tony Gwynn only had a single season after his rookie year UNDER .311 (it was .309). So again, no, even playing math games with "taking away these years" Pete Rose was not NEAR the hitter Gwynn was, and Williams was even better.
Yeah, I never said he was near those guys. But he is definitely an all-time great hitter. He is in the top XX%. You dont have to be THE BEST, to be among the best.

Also, I came into this thread last night. Wasnt gonna waste my time reading all the stuff posted before.
Jun 26, 2014 10:39am