FatHobbit;1241475 wrote:I wonder if this is the beginning of the end for the NCAA? I'd like to see their dirty laundry aired out and let them face the same scrutiny and media coverage that many schools have been facing. (Not that I want to defend anything to do with the Penn State mess)

Amen. Bring them all to the party. All the NCAA $$ sponsors like the shoe companies and bowl committees.

PSU needed its wings clipped.

and indeed it should have. But it is a question of direction and severity. The people resposible deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. They need to lose their jobs....they should be receive lifetime NCAA sanctions. But, in typical NCAA fashion...it's ruling goes well beyond that. If the NCAA had stuck with more reasonable sanctions on the university, probably everyone would have understood. BUT the innocent are left to bear 10 years of football sanctions, and those not responsible are held to pay an outragious fine. The students, faculty, staff, alumni and those dependent on PSU for a living, ( who are just as abhorred by what transpired) should not have to bear this burden. That they must does not fit any sense of justice that I would subscribe to. I don't buy into the arguement that "when the NCAA issues a punishmnet, that the innocent also suffer" and that's the way it has to be.

Why do people think they have standing to appeal an agreement between the university and the NCAA? I have as much standing as they do, which is none

I would think a class action by anyone unfairly affected by the ruling is in order.

Now, a group of former players are appealing the vacated wins

This does not happen if the NCAA stays within its mission statement.

HitsRus;1242602 wrote:I would think a class action by anyone unfairly affected by the ruling is in order.

As it takes at least two parties to create a consent decree, I assume you believe Penn State University should also be named in the suit, as they're equally culpable for the "damage" to innocent parties.

There are always innocent victims when justice is served. Also, damages in the legal sense are measured in money. What innocent party has been damaged in real terms?

There are always innocent victims when justice is served

Why? is this customary?...necessary?...desirable? Are we to accept this...just because?

What innocent party has been damaged in real terms?

Vendors, those whose jobs may be lost due to downsizing,... alumni who paid full price to see games.... Students that enrolled expecting football to be part of their college experience....players who now have to choose whether to stay at PSU and play under sanctions or transfer.
Now keep in mind that alot of this is not necessary.

HitsRus;1242704 wrote:Why? is this customary?...necessary?...desirable? Are we to accept this...just because?

More unavoidable than anything. Say you committed a crime and was convicted. Would there not be people negatively affected to varying degrees (your family, friends, business partners, etc.)?

Now keep in mind that alot of this is not necessary.

What do you believe the sanctions against the program should be, given that their "holier than thou" spiel was near the top of their list for selling the program, and was a foul, disgusting lie for over a decade?

What do you believe the sanctions against the program should be, given that their "holier than thou" spiel was near the top of their list for selling the program, and was a foul, disgusting lie for over a decade?

I could offer my opinion on what the sanctions should be "against the program"...but they would be as arbitrary as....well as....the NCAA ruling on Penn State!:laugh:
Quite frankly, the NCAA is on shaky ground levying ANY sanctions.
Recommended reading...
http://michaelbucknerlaw.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/michael-l-buckner-law-firm-statement-on-reports-of-ncaa-sanctions-against-penn-state/
http://michaelbucknerlaw.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/michael-l-buckner-law-firm-response-to-ncaa-penalties-in-penn-state-case/

HitsRus;1242598 wrote:and indeed it should have. But it is a question of direction and severity. The people resposible deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. They need to lose their jobs....they should be receive lifetime NCAA sanctions. But, in typical NCAA fashion...it's ruling goes well beyond that. If the NCAA had stuck with more reasonable sanctions on the university, probably everyone would have understood. BUT the innocent are left to bear 10 years of football sanctions, and those not responsible are held to pay an outragious fine. The students, faculty, staff, alumni and those dependent on PSU for a living, ( who are just as abhorred by what transpired) should not have to bear this burden. That they must does not fit any sense of justice that I would subscribe to. I don't buy into the arguement that "when the NCAA issues a punishmnet, that the innocent also suffer" and that's the way it has to be.

Gosh lets see. The Trustees put the administration in place and gave free rein to joe. They loved the money and the acclaim as did the athletic department. The football team was rich in money and in recruits.
All of which would be endangered by the revelation of Sandusky’s conduct. PSU failed to exercise control over its employees. PSU is responsible.

HitsRus;1242867 wrote:I could offer my opinion on what the sanctions should be "against the program"...but they would be as arbitrary as....well as....the NCAA ruling on Penn State!:laugh:
Quite frankly, the NCAA is on shaky ground levying ANY sanctions.
Recommended reading...
http://michaelbucknerlaw.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/michael-l-buckner-law-firm-statement-on-reports-of-ncaa-sanctions-against-penn-state/
http://michaelbucknerlaw.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/michael-l-buckner-law-firm-response-to-ncaa-penalties-in-penn-state-case/

Oddly missed in these is that the NCAA imposed nothing, the NCAA and Penn State University agreed to a series of penalties. Any legal challenges will fail and fail quickly and easily.

Lack of due process is a giant strawman, it was a consent decree, the normal result of negotiation. There is no due process in a negotiation.

If there was 'consent'... was it made under duress?...and with proper authority?
As per ESPN...Penn State was given the option to sign the consent agreement, or that a 4 year death penalty would be levied. That sounds like duress to me.

For my part...I hope Penn State gets a sentence reduction. Mostly I am just happy that this latest NCAA overreach opens people's eyes that this organization stopped operating for the good of college athletics and student athletes long ago....That it has become a cash monster generating millions of dollars for it's members who are addicted to the cash flow to the point that they willing succumb to whatever the monster sees fit.

HitsRus;1242704 wrote:Students that enrolled expecting football to be part of their college experience....

L O L

^^^Your input on this thread is soooo enlightening.

HitsRus;1242598 wrote:and indeed it should have. But it is a question of direction and severity. The people resposible deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. They need to lose their jobs....they should be receive lifetime NCAA sanctions. But, in typical NCAA fashion...it's ruling goes well beyond that. If the NCAA had stuck with more reasonable sanctions on the university, probably everyone would have understood. BUT the innocent are left to bear 10 years of football sanctions, and those not responsible are held to pay an outragious fine. The students, faculty, staff, alumni and those dependent on PSU for a living, ( who are just as abhorred by what transpired) should not have to bear this burden. That they must does not fit any sense of justice that I would subscribe to. I don't buy into the arguement that "when the NCAA issues a punishmnet, that the innocent also suffer" and that's the way it has to be.

You just don't get it. This was BY FAR the most heinous malfeasance perpetrated by an athletic department and their bosses in the history of college sports. ALL done for the sole purpose of protecting, perpetuating and growing the prestige of the football program. I HATE to say this, but forget the young boys. What was for over a decade covered up, lied about and hidden.... by janitors, the head coach, the AD, a VP and THE President of the University and I'd bet my last dollar other coaches....it could have been a drug ring, rapes, fixing of games, performance enhancing drugs, prostitution ring....it doesn't really matter. It was the long cover up by those who MUST police the integrity of an athletic department.

The NCAA, the 119 Presidents of the other Universities feel the penalties handed down gave Penn State a break, the penalties could have been MUCH worse and were seriously considered. Arbitrary??????????????

THE football program....WE ARE PENN STATE.... Happy Valley..... must be brought to their knees. The entire community is incestuous There could have been 20,000 in Happy Valley that knew and no one would have said a word to protect the brand name.

No jobs are going to be lost, Penn State has received thousands of calls from people looking to buy season tickets...sorry.... ZERO have been cancelled. Think about it, those Happy Valley Cool Aid drinkers are going to poke a sharp stick in the eye of the NCAA by being sure there will be over 100,000 fannies in seats for the next 10 years regardless. The $60 million is drop in the bucket. If a letter was sent out to alumni asking for $60M it would be raised in a year. Hell, they wouldn't even have to send a letter, the $60M will flow in naturally, just to spite the NCAA.

The coaches aren't hurt, they will get extensions, none will be fired for 10 years. If a coach wants to leave they can. The players aren't hurt. They all have multiple choices. They can stay and play for their beloved Happy Valley WE ARE PENN STATE or they can transfer now or next year and not sit out a year. Hell, they weren't going to win any titles in the next 10 years any way. ALL of the liars and cheats who covered up had choices. All those innocent people that you say have been hurt, ALL have choices. ALL of those young boys molested had NO choices.

HitsRus;1242979 wrote:^^^Your input on this thread is soooo enlightening.

Suing for damages because students no longer will be able to watch top notch football is hilarious to me, sorry.

HitsRus;1242704 wrote:Why? is this customary?...necessary?...desirable? Are we to accept this...just because?


Vendors, those whose jobs may be lost due to downsizing,... alumni who paid full price to see games.... Students that enrolled expecting football to be part of their college experience....players who now have to choose whether to stay at PSU and play under sanctions or transfer.
Now keep in mind that alot of this is not necessary.

You are a complete dolt. I'm willing to bet my net worth vs your nest worth that there will be 100,000+ at every Penn State game for the next 10 years. That's a bad bet for me, I have no use for your skate board.

SportsAndLady;1242990 wrote:Suing for damages because students no longer will be able to watch top notch football is hilarious to me, sorry.

They also have choices. They can transfer to Ohio State or U of M. The fans are almost as fanatic and the football will be a lot better even if Sandusky was never caught.

HitsRus;1242953 wrote:If there was 'consent'... was it made under duress?...and with proper authority?
As per ESPN...Penn State was given the option to sign the consent agreement, or that a 4 year death penalty would be levied. That sounds like duress to me.

For my part...I hope Penn State gets a sentence reduction. Mostly I am just happy that this latest NCAA overreach opens people's eyes that this organization stopped operating for the good of college athletics and student athletes long ago....That it has become a cash monster generating millions of dollars for it's members who are addicted to the cash flow to the point that they willing succumb to whatever the monster sees fit.

Your posts have shown that you are a big time whiner that abhors anyone of authority.

HitsRus;1242953 wrote:If there was 'consent'... was it made under duress?...and with proper authority?<br>
As per ESPN...Penn State was given the option to sign the consent agreement, or that a 4 year death penalty would be levied. That sounds like duress to me.<br>
<br>
For my part...I hope Penn State gets a sentence reduction. Mostly I am just happy that this latest NCAA overreach opens people's eyes that this organization stopped operating for the good of college athletics and student athletes long ago....That it has become a cash monster generating millions of dollars for it's members who are addicted to the cash flow to the point that they willing succumb to whatever the monster sees fit.

<br><br><br>Your posts have shown that you are a big time whiner that abhors anyone of authority. Hates any person, company or organization that has money. Undoubted a card carrying communist.

HitsRus;1242953 wrote:If there was 'consent'... was it made under duress?...and with proper authority?&lt;br&gt;<br>
As per ESPN...Penn State was given the option to sign the consent agreement, or that a 4 year death penalty would be levied. That sounds like duress to me.&lt;br&gt;<br>
&lt;br&gt;<br>
For my part...I hope Penn State gets a sentence reduction. Mostly I am just happy that this latest NCAA overreach opens people's eyes that this organization stopped operating for the good of college athletics and student athletes long ago....That it has become a cash monster generating millions of dollars for it's members who are addicted to the cash flow to the point that they willing succumb to whatever the monster sees fit.

Your posts have shown that you are a big time whiner that abhors anyone of authority. Hates any person, company or organization that has money. Undoubtedly a card carrying communist.

HitsRus;1242953 wrote:If there was 'consent'... was it made under duress?...and with proper authority?
As per ESPN...Penn State was given the option to sign the consent agreement, or that a 4 year death penalty would be levied. That sounds like duress to me.

In the dictionary meaning of the word, perhaps. In the legal sense, more unlikely. How is it any different than offering a murderer a plea bargain of a life sentence to avoid the death penalty? As to "proper authority", the NCAA is an organization whose voting members are, wait for it, university presidents. The notion that the president of Penn State can't enter into an agreement with the NCAA is laughable.

For my part...I hope Penn State gets a sentence reduction. Mostly I am just happy that this latest NCAA overreach opens people's eyes that this organization stopped operating for the good of college athletics and student athletes long ago....That it has become a cash monster generating millions of dollars for it's members who are addicted to the cash flow to the point that they willing succumb to whatever the monster sees fit.

While I don't necessarily disagree with the criticism of the NCAA, in this situation it feels like a case of misplaced priorites at best, unseemly at worst for that to be the front page story. While the NCAA's hat may not be perfectly white, the party with the solid black hat here is Penn State. It's like discussing a rash of car robberies while Hitler is sitting in the room.

SportsAndLady;1242990 wrote:Suing for damages because students no longer will be able to watch top notch football is hilarious to me, sorry.

Or even better, because alumni paid for season tickets. :rolleyes:

SportsAndLady;1242990 wrote:Suing for damages because students no longer will be able to watch top notch football is hilarious to me, sorry.

If that were the case, there'd be a helluva lot of students suing their schools...just sayin'

Seriously, is that all you got? I post a list of people affected negatively by the NCAA ruling and you jump on that? I noticed you didn't try to touch the legal opinion that I posted. I will give queencitybuckeye props for making a legitimate arguement and keeping things civil.
I can understand why Big gain has to try to get personal as his arguement contains no substance, and is just a rant that tries to justify vigilante justice. E.g.... "Penn State needs to be brought to it's knees"... Give me a break. 99.99% of the people who are associated with PSU have nothing to do with the crimes committed.

Your posts have shown that you are a big time whiner that abhors anyone of authority. Hates any person, company or organization that has money. Undoubtedly a card carrying communist.

Quite the opposite in fact. Your viewpoint is much closer to communism than mine as you seem to be quite comfortable with governing bodies issuing rules willy-nilly and exceeding their authority.

the party with the solid black hat here is Penn State

I'm going to disagreeQCB...the party(s) with the solid black hat are the people who committed the crime. 99.99% of PSU is innocent and those people are equally abhorred by what happened as you.

In the dictionary meaning of the word, perhaps. In the legal sense, more unlikely. How is it any different than offering a murderer a plea bargain of a life sentence to avoid the death penalty? As to "proper authority", the NCAA is an organization whose voting members are, wait for it, university presidents.

Not quite the same...in a plea bargain you can refuse it and you are entitled to due process...I don't think PSU got the option that would give them a trial in front of a jury of their peers. Peers?....who would that be...wait for it....University Presidents!

HitsRus;1243480 wrote:I will give queencitybuckeye props for making a legitimate arguement and keeping things civil.

Reps to you for an actual adult discussion around here, it's all too rare.

I'm going to disagreeQCB...the party(s) with the solid black hat are the people who committed the crime. 99.99% of PSU is innocent and those people are equally abhorred by what happened as you.

I would just point out that included in that 0.01% was the face of the program, a program that sold itself as different. They were, just not in the way that most of us thought. In pure sports terms, that lie was an unfair advantage and requires the program to be punished.

It's fairly clear that we've both made up our minds on this subject, so I'll leave the last word to you, if you're so inclined.

It's fairly clear that we've both made up our minds on this subject, so I'll leave the last word to you, if you're so inclined.

I've pretty much said all that I want to say other than I think we have been conditioned to accept punishment to "programs" as being the norm...even when the current program bears no resemblence to the former offending program. Far better that punishmnet be directed at those responsible. Secondly, I'm not sure that one can claim that PSU got an 'on field advantage' because it lied for two reasons...1) it was not a lie because there is nothing in the NCAA rulebook that specifies ANY general 'criminal activity' as a punishable violation. The NCAA goes out of it's way to specify 'certain' criminal activities.....e.g. gambling, drugs...it does not list criminal activity in general or 'coverups' of criminal activity as an NCAA punishable violation. Hence, any claims that PSU was clean of any major NCAA violations is technically correct.
2) it cannot be proven that disclosing that a former coach was a (suspected at the time)child molester would have necessarily caused recruits to abandon PSU.

I would have easily predicted that the NCAA hammer PSU....It is always more than willing to hammer those that are repentant (OSU, PSU, Miami)....and let's skate those that won't willing give themselves up.(see Auburn and Cam Newton). I have and have had real reservations about granting expanded powers to organizations that serve as the prosecutor, judge, jury and treasurer all at the same time.

I'm done. I'll agree to disagree QCB. Good night.