Who are your top 5 hitters in MLB?

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Laley23's avatar

Laley23

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May 15, 2012 12:40 AM
Mooney44Cards;1171352 wrote: But I'd like to hear why you think Kemp's 2011 was so much better than Votto's 2010 when the numbers don't agree with you.
So much better? I didnt say that. Nor did I say I knew he had peaked (Midstate). Seems like you guys think I think Votto sucks. Which is far from the case, I have him 6th on my list.

But to answer the question. My main reason was because the Reds were actually good, and the Dodgers sucked penis last year. So putting up MVP numbers for them to me was more impressive.

I do admit I said that without even looking at numbers. Thought Kemps were better to be honest. Mostly OBP and AVG. But my main reason for thinking his season was better stands. The Dodgers were terrible. The Reds made the playoffs. Same reason I think Kershaw was a better pitcher than Verlander last season, though the numbers are actually IN my favor on that one lol.
May 15, 2012 12:40am
Mooney44Cards's avatar

Mooney44Cards

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May 15, 2012 12:55 AM
The problem with the "Player X was on a better team" argument is that it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you think about it, and there is no way to quantify whether it is an advantage or disadvantage statistically for a player to be on a good team compared to a bad team.

One argument (yours) is that a player on a good team will have better players around him and that is to a distinct advantage of said player.

Another argument says that the player on the better team is dealing with a whole lot more pressure than the player on the bad team. In addition to that, the player on the bad team (if he is surrounded by bad players) is more likely to get pitches to hit than a player surrounded by good hitters who hit and get on base before and after said player.
May 15, 2012 12:55am
Classyposter58's avatar

Classyposter58

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May 15, 2012 10:30 AM
1. Miguel Cabrera
2. Joey Votto
3. Josh Hamilton
4. Prince Fielder
5. Joe Mauer
May 15, 2012 10:30am
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thavoice

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14,376 posts
May 15, 2012 10:46 AM
We may have seen th ebest of votto, and that really isnt a knock on him. That was one monster year he had. I think he can consistantly be a 300+, 30HR, 110 RBI guy through much of his career. Two seasons ago he was just insane.
May 15, 2012 10:46am
Laley23's avatar

Laley23

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May 15, 2012 11:38 AM
Mooney44Cards;1171358 wrote:The problem with the "Player X was on a better team" argument is that it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you think about it, and there is no way to quantify whether it is an advantage or disadvantage statistically for a player to be on a good team compared to a bad team.

One argument (yours) is that a player on a good team will have better players around him and that is to a distinct advantage of said player.

Another argument says that the player on the better team is dealing with a whole lot more pressure than the player on the bad team. In addition to that, the player on the bad team (if he is surrounded by bad players) is more likely to get pitches to hit than a player surrounded by good hitters who hit and get on base before and after said player.
Oh, I completely agree with everything you are saying. But that doesnt mean I will change my thought that bad team players have it tougher to get numbers. I think its very possible that the other argument may be stronger, I just personally dont think thats the case. Its fine, we are arguing whether a guy is 6th best or top 5 hitter in all of baseball. Its safe to say, we both think he is fucking amazing lol.
thavoice;1171660 wrote:We may have seen th ebest of votto, and that really isnt a knock on him. That was one monster year he had. I think he can consistantly be a 300+, 30HR, 110 RBI guy through much of his career. Two seasons ago he was just insane.
That is kind of what my thinking is. I think he will duplicate that season again and be right around the numbers you laid out for most of his career. I just happen to believe Kemp is slightly better and will put up slightly better numbers going forward. Just think he is a TOUCH better.
May 15, 2012 11:38am
Azubuike24's avatar

Azubuike24

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May 15, 2012 12:35 PM
Votto's strengths actually go unappreciated by many, IMO.

Best defensive 1B in the NL. Maybe in MLB.
Best eye in the league. Will lead the league in BB's and IBB's by a large margin

I do agree, he may not be capable of 40/125 constantly, but his peripherals make him the guy I build a lineup around. He's going to be in the top 3 (if not the leader in all categories) in OBP, OPS, walks and intentional walks even if his power numbers aren't leading the league. To me, this natural approach/talent (whatever you call it) lends to more consistency and impact on the team.

That's why Pujols' decline is a concern. He used to be all these things, along with being the best producer. Sure, his production has fallen (less HR's, RBI's, extra base hits, runs, etc...) but so have his OBP, BB/K ratio and total bases. The latter is why he got paid (and why Votto got paid), knowing that those skills are very few in far between. Many more guys can hit 40 HR's and drive in 125 runs (see Adam Dunn references from this very thread). Very few have the potential to do it while leading the league in 3-5 other non-production categories.

Kemp can. Votto can. Hamilton can. Nobody else will.

The only knock on Votto is he strikes out more than ideal, but part of me wonders if that's him TRYING to produce instead of take a walk or work the count. He's proven that he's maybe the best in the league at simply going up there and spoiling pitches with no real intent to do damage.
May 15, 2012 12:35pm
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Heretic

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May 15, 2012 12:57 PM
Azubuike24;1171858 wrote:The only knock on Votto is he strikes out more than ideal, but part of me wonders if that's him TRYING to produce instead of take a walk or work the count. He's proven that he's maybe the best in the league at simply going up there and spoiling pitches with no real intent to do damage.
I'd think that's the case. Over the past couple years, how many times have people walked him to get to the next guys because of how much less dangerous they were, due to being inconsistent strikeout machines or just plain blah? When they don't get the key hit, I think that makes him more determined to make something happen, so teams don't take the easy way out to avoid him.
May 15, 2012 12:57pm
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thavoice

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May 15, 2012 12:59 PM
az....i think his Ks are in check for his career. He was whiffing alot early...but to be honest with ya.....if you hit over 300, with 350 RISP average does it really matter? He started out very slow and is on pace for about 20/90 I think...and that is starting slow.

I dont know the breakdown...but I wonder what his K ratio is with RISP or no one on base...
May 15, 2012 12:59pm
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Mooney44Cards

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May 15, 2012 1:06 PM
One of the points made in the Moneyball book is that it is far easier for any professional baseball player to develop power than it is to develop a good eye at the plate. Most high OBP guys are just born with the eye/patience at the plate to be a high OBP player. This is what made Barry Bonds so amazing in his "juiced up" years. He already was an elite hitter and high OBP guy, juice him up and everything is magnified exponentially.

I'll always think a guy like Votto is more valuable than a guy like Dunn (this is kind of a no-brainer), and I think Kemp as a hitter is somewhere in between a Votto-type hitter and a Dunn-type hitter.

I'd concede the point if someone is trying to say Kemp is a better overall baseball player, because Kemp does have the edge on defense and base-running (despite Votto's stellar defense at 1B), but even then it could be argued either way.
May 15, 2012 1:06pm
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Crimson streak

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May 15, 2012 1:22 PM
Classyposter58;1171614 wrote:1. Miguel Cabrera
2. Joey Votto
3. Josh Hamilton
4. Prince Fielder
5. Joe Mauer

Mauer and fielder? Really?
May 15, 2012 1:22pm
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Crimson streak

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May 15, 2012 1:25 PM
Another one I would put on here in a year or 2 is Bryce Harper. Dude has everything in his game. Hits for power has speed goes opposite field. Reminds me a little bit of before steroid Barry bonds/ ken Griffey jr
May 15, 2012 1:25pm
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thavoice

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May 15, 2012 1:46 PM
Crimson streak;1171908 wrote:Another one I would put on here in a year or 2 is Bryce Harper. Dude has everything in his game. Hits for power has speed goes opposite field. Reminds me a little bit of before steroid Barry bonds/ ken Griffey jr
he very well may evolve into that, but I dont think he will reach top 5 status in just a year or two.
May 15, 2012 1:46pm
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Crimson streak

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May 15, 2012 1:55 PM
thavoice;1171953 wrote:he very well may evolve into that, but I dont think he will reach top 5 status in just a year or two.

I would say 2 years will be his break out year. Next year will be his full season so he will have ups and downs. But in 2 years I bet he has it figured out and puts up insane numbers
May 15, 2012 1:55pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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May 15, 2012 2:29 PM
Crimson streak;1171908 wrote:Another one I would put on here in a year or 2 is Bryce Harper. Dude has everything in his game. Hits for power has speed goes opposite field. Reminds me a little bit of before steroid Barry bonds/ ken Griffey jr
Oh give me a break...harper will not be a top 5 hitter. Hell of a player, but not top 5.

He gets all this attention because hes the type of player (high energy) who drives in ratings.
May 15, 2012 2:29pm
Azubuike24's avatar

Azubuike24

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May 15, 2012 2:42 PM
When I mentioned Votto's strikeouts, it's not a knock on him, but in-comparison to Bonds, Pujols and some of the insane OBP guys who had twice as many walks as K's over history, it's not in that category.

Votto still has the best eye in baseball though...so it's not like it's a detriment. It's just the one thing that keeps him from being insane.
May 15, 2012 2:42pm
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Crimson streak

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May 15, 2012 2:44 PM
SportsAndLady;1172019 wrote:Oh give me a break...harper will not be a top 5 hitter. Hell of a player, but not top 5.

He gets all this attention because hes the type of player (high energy) who drives in ratings.

Have you seen him play? I've probably seen him live a good 20+ times. He has all the tools to be successful. He has a ton of talent and the kid is 19
May 15, 2012 2:44pm
Azubuike24's avatar

Azubuike24

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May 15, 2012 2:50 PM
Makes you appreciate Ted Williams' 2021 walks compared to 709 K's. Or Bonds' 2558 walks compared to 1539 K's.
May 15, 2012 2:50pm
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karen lotz

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May 15, 2012 2:59 PM
Azubuike24;1172023 wrote:Votto still has the best eye in baseball though...so it's not like it's a detriment. It's just the one thing that keeps him from being insane.

How do you know this? Because he leads the league in walks?

He also isn't the best defensive 1B in MLB and its arguable that he isn't the best in the NL either.


Votto is a great baseball player, don't get me wrong. But I think you might be slightly blinded by your fanhood.
May 15, 2012 2:59pm
Azubuike24's avatar

Azubuike24

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May 15, 2012 4:35 PM
My 2 claims, best defensive 1B and best eye are VERY subjective. However, the stats used to back those up support Votto.

He won the NL Gold Glove in 2011.
He leads the NL in walks and led the NL in walks in 2011.

We can argue up and down how valid those are in predicting "best defender" and "best eye", but the opposing arguments to my statements would be even more subjective...
May 15, 2012 4:35pm
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Mooney44Cards

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May 15, 2012 5:38 PM
Crimson streak;1172027 wrote:Have you seen him play? I've probably seen him live a good 20+ times. He has all the tools to be successful. He has a ton of talent and the kid is 19
Call me crazy but I don't think Bryce Harper mashing amateur and minor league pitching is a good indicator for him becoming a top 5 MLB hitter in 2 years. His knock has always been that he can't hit breaking pitches, so lets wait to see how good he is once major league pitchers have him figured out.

Kid is super talented, no doubt. But lets not jump the gun here.
May 15, 2012 5:38pm
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Mooney44Cards

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May 15, 2012 5:42 PM
karen lotz;1172044 wrote:How do you know this? Because he leads the league in walks?

He also isn't the best defensive 1B in MLB and its arguable that he isn't the best in the NL either.


Votto is a great baseball player, don't get me wrong. But I think you might be slightly blinded by your fanhood.
He doesn't "know" this. It's his opinion. As is every "X is the best X" subjective measurement. You asking "how do you know this" is pointless. If you have some reasons why Votto doesn't have the best eye in baseball then say so, if you have other people who you think are better, mention them and tell us why.

But you chiming in to say basically "your opinion is wrong" is pointless, and its terrible sports discussion.
May 15, 2012 5:42pm
Laley23's avatar

Laley23

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May 15, 2012 7:22 PM
My best eye at the plate would go to Albert Pujols. Myabe not this year, but the guy doesnt ever reach high K totals, and really doesnt swing at bad pitches. He may not get the BB totals or others, but he wont swing at a bad pitch.
May 15, 2012 7:22pm
karen lotz's avatar

karen lotz

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May 15, 2012 7:30 PM
Mooney44Cards;1172183 wrote:He doesn't "know" this. It's his opinion. As is every "X is the best X" subjective measurement. You asking "how do you know this" is pointless. If you have some reasons why Votto doesn't have the best eye in baseball then say so, if you have other people who you think are better, mention them and tell us why.

But you chiming in to say basically "your opinion is wrong" is pointless, and its terrible sports discussion.

Sorry. He strikes out too much to have the best eye. Must swing at bad pitches because he is a very talented hitter otherwise.

His base on balls numbers are probably skewed some also because teams pitch around him. The two walks in last nights games took very little plate discipline, they were both of the unintentional intentional variety.
May 15, 2012 7:30pm
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SportsAndLady

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May 15, 2012 7:52 PM
karen lotz;1172226 wrote:Sorry. He strikes out too much to have the best eye. Must swing at bad pitches because he is a very talented hitter otherwise.

His base on balls numbers are probably skewed some also because teams pitch around him. The two walks in last nights games took very little plate discipline, they were both of the unintentional intentional variety.
I don't have the stats on it, but Votto almost always seems to K swinging.

Could be 100% wrong..
May 15, 2012 7:52pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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May 15, 2012 7:53 PM
Crimson streak;1172027 wrote:Have you seen him play? I've probably seen him live a good 20+ times. He has all the tools to be successful. He has a ton of talent and the kid is 19
Minor league hitting means squat.

He's been in the MLB for what? a week?

Easy on the Top 5 hitters in MLB talk...do you know how good of a hitter you have to be to be top 5?
May 15, 2012 7:53pm