jhay78;1141616 wrote:Leon Panetta suggested those techniques helped us get bin Laden:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8491509/Osama-bin-Laden-killed-CIA-admits-waterboarding-yielded-vital-information.html

And Leon Panetta is full of sgit. Have the justice department write up a bipartisan report stating the facrs that tortire led to nin Ladin. It won't be done bevause it wasn't true.

And Leon Panetta is just another in the long line war mongers that spit on our democratic principles while implementing operating policy in direct defference to the wishes of the overwhelming mass majority of his constuents, in order to please the lobbyists of the MIC, who line their pockets through bloodshed.

Leon will have to deal with Judgement Day too.

Panetta's horsesxhit debunked...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2011/may/05/torture-and-osama-bin-laden

Footwedge;1143004 wrote:And Leon Panetta is full of sgit. Have the justice department write up a bipartisan report stating the facrs that tortire led to nin Ladin. It won't be done bevause it wasn't true.

And Leon Panetta is just another in the long line war mongers that spit on our democratic principles while implementing operating policy in direct defference to the wishes of the overwhelming mass majority of his constuents, in order to please the lobbyists of the MIC, who line their pockets through bloodshed.

Leon will have to deal with Judgement Day too.

Panetta's horsesxhit debunked...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2011/may/05/torture-and-osama-bin-laden

An op-ed by some British broad "debunks" he head of the CIA? Good one, bro. :rolleyes:

fish82;1143029 wrote:An op-ed by some British broad "debunks" he head of the CIA? Good one, bro. :rolleyes:

Footie's obsessed with the "warmonger" thingy even if he has to dig for it from ultra-liberal British hacks like Algar.

fish82;1143029 wrote:An op-ed by some British broad "debunks" he head of the CIA? Good one, bro. :rolleyes:

When the CIA releases an official memo stating that torture led to bin Ladin then let me know. I heard Condi, Cheney and especially Rummy state "he's got em" (WMD) "in northern Tikrit" on national television. It doesn't mean shit.

But while we are on the subject....how about the torture of a top level Al Quada operative in 2002?....when the operative said that Al Quada and Saddam were in cahoots? In order to stop the torture? One big fat fuggin whopper that the US trumpeted as "proof" of the connection.

The only information torture delivers is faulty information.

believer;1143098 wrote:Footie's obsessed with the "warmonger" thingy even if he has to dig for it from ultra-liberal British hacks like Algar.

Feeling a little concerned on being a pro torture Christian I see. And...I'll be waiting for an official memo from any of our intel agencies documenting the results of torture...whether it be bin Ladin's capture...or the Jack Bauer ticking time bomb theory.

We torture...because we are just as sadistic as the next guy is. Nothing more to see.

"Torture is prohibited under international law and the domestic laws of most countries in the 21st century. It is considered to be a violation of human rights, and is declared to be unacceptable by Article 5 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Signatories of the Third Geneva Convention and Fourth Geneva Convention officially agree not to torture prisoners in armed conflicts. Torture is also prohibited by the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which has been ratified by 147 countries.[SUP]["

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture[/SUP]

In this document Amnesty International use examples to illustrate that torture does not prevent terror. Amnesty International condemns unreservedly all acts of terror, whatever the cause of the perpetrators. Deliberately attacking civilians can never be justified and flouts the most fundamental principles of humanity. The US government, while publicly condemning torture, has authorized "coercive" techniques that amount to torture or are cruel, inhuman or degrading. The techniques are illegal. The USA's conduct influences governments everywhere. Amnesty International is mobilizing people to stop the use of torture and other ill-treatment in the "war on terror".

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ACT40/014/2005/en

The U.S. does not officially tortue captives and follows international law with regards to tortue.

The determination of what costitutes torture is the real question.

Footwedge;1142572 wrote:That is your belief, not mine. I believe in a judgement day...a report card if you will that factors in many things as ascribed by the New Testament. The references to being a peacenik numbers in the hundreds.

Of course it's my opinion. Whose else would it be seeing how it was me that posted it.

Actions do not determine eternal presence with God. Faith in Christ does...thanks be to God.

A sin is a sin. There's no differenciation between them. Sinful acts of interntaional torture are seen the same way bu our Creator as usinig is name in vain. They each separate us from Him. You and I are as sinful as a tortuous individual.

Con_Alma;1144746 wrote:The U.S. does not officially tortue captives and follows international law with regards to tortue.

I respectfully disagree...as does Amnesty International. According to International standards, waterboarding, by definition, is torture. Euphenisms such as "enhanced interrogations" is nothing more than a legal smokescreen.

The determination of what costitutes torture is the real question.

As I said above, therev are definitions given by the UN, Amnesty International, and the Geneva Conventions that are pretty clear on what constitutes torture.

On an aside, Cheney gave a long speech tonight talking about how "enhanced interrogations" lead to "multiple tips" that saved lives. How can he state something like that without a shred of documentation supporting his claim?

Con_Alma;1144750 wrote:Of course it's my opinion. Whose else would it be seeing how it was me that posted it.

Actions do not determine eternal presence with God. Faith in Christ does...thanks be to God.

A sin is a sin. There's no differenciation between them. Sinful acts of interntaional torture are seen the same way bu our Creator as usinig is name in vain. They each separate us from Him. You and I are as sinful as a tortuous individual.

You and I are believers that hope to end up in the same place. I view the varience of sin a lot differently than you do. To me, stealing a candy bar at the stop and go is going to be viewed a little differently than pulling out someone's toenails one by one....because a prisoner may or may not know something about someone.

Footwedge;1144733 wrote:In this document Amnesty International use examples to illustrate that torture does not prevent terror. Amnesty International condemns unreservedly all acts of terror, whatever the cause of the perpetrators. Deliberately attacking civilians can never be justified and flouts the most fundamental principles of humanity. The US government, while publicly condemning torture, has authorized "coercive" techniques that amount to torture or are cruel, inhuman or degrading. The techniques are illegal. The USA's conduct influences governments everywhere. Amnesty International is mobilizing people to stop the use of torture and other ill-treatment in the "war on terror".

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ACT40/014/2005/en

According to whom? And more specifically, what army?

Fact: The United States conducts military/intelligence with the highest code of honor and ethics in history, higher than any superpower before it.

Footwedge;1144966 wrote:You and I are believers that hope to end up in the same place. I view the varience of sin a lot differently than you do. To me, stealing a candy bar at the stop and go is going to be viewed a little differently than pulling out someone's toenails one by one....because a prisoner may or may not know something about someone.

I respect that but Biblically they are addresses as equal.

Footwedge;1 wrote:144959I respectfully disagree...as does Amnesty International. According to International standards, waterboarding, by definition, is torture. Euphenisms such as "enhanced interrogations" is nothing more than a legal smokescreen....

Lets be clear that you are disagreeing with the U.S. as opposed to me.

"Legal smokescreen"s are interpretative views as much as those taken by Amnesty International.

Footwedge;1 wrote:..On an aside, Cheney gave a long speech tonight talking about how "enhanced interrogations" lead to "multiple tips" that saved lives. How can he state something like that without a shred of documentation supporting his claim?

I would assume he could state it because he believes it and wasn't providing the information in attempt to prove anything to you.

Interesting how so many know so much about torture but never experienced killing anyone, watching your friend die from booby trap, seeing citizen murdered, women rapped old men shot in the ankles so they could move but in the end they are experts on torture. I wonder if in a fire fight if they would feel the same way most like they vomit and want to go home.

Con_Alma;1144997 wrote:I respect that but Biblically they are addresses as equal.

This is not 100% accurate. There are many instances in the Bible that suggest all sins are not equal. For example Jesus telling Pilate that those who handed him over to Pilate committed the greater sin. Thete are a ton more of simliar examples.

Footwedge;1144733 wrote:In this document Amnesty International use examples to illustrate that torture does not prevent terror. Amnesty International condemns unreservedly all acts of terror, whatever the cause of the perpetrators. Deliberately attacking civilians can never be justified and flouts the most fundamental principles of humanity. The US government, while publicly condemning torture, has authorized "coercive" techniques that amount to torture or are cruel, inhuman or degrading. The techniques are illegal. The USA's conduct influences governments everywhere. Amnesty International is mobilizing people to stop the use of torture and other ill-treatment in the "war on terror".

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ACT40/014/2005/en

The document illustrates no such thing. The examples are five guys whining about their treatment. Unless AI has access to internal information from countries' intelligence agencies, then using them as a source as to what does or does not "prevent terror" is silly.

pmoney25;1145019 wrote:This is not 100% accurate. There are many instances in the Bible that suggest all sins are not equal. For example Jesus telling Pilate that those who handed him over to Pilate committed the greater sin. Thete are a ton more of simliar examples.

...yet how they are impacting with respect to eternal life has no difference. That's the point.

jhay78;1141616 wrote:Leon Panetta suggested those techniques helped us get bin Laden:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8491509/Osama-bin-Laden-killed-CIA-admits-waterboarding-yielded-vital-information.html

Perhaps initially, which led us to KSM, but according to many of the reports, the break through to OBL came from Signal Intelligence and finally catching a phone conversation with the man who handled message to the Bin Laden compound and the rest of Al Qaeda.

From all of my readings into actual cases, and working beside Peter Bergen, and even Philip Mudd (former FBI and CIA), most of the intelligence through torture, or whatever you want to call it, came early in the period of 2001-2004. Post then, most of the info came from a combination of regular FBI techniques, and some harsh measures (more mental strain) in overseas prison (Germany, Poland, etc.).
Additionally, our Signal and Measured Intelligence has advanced by leaps and bounds.
Plus, by 2004, the high value guys we were taking, weren't giving any additional info. KSM was making up stories.

So, to me, it is almost a non-issue as it is not used that much anymore because we do not need to use it. We have other means to gather intel.

sjmvsfscs08;1144975 wrote: Fact: The United States conducts military/intelligence with the highest code of honor and ethics in history, higher than any superpower before it.

Says who? Better find a link to support such an inane claim.

Con_Alma;1144999 wrote:I would assume he could state it because he believes it and wasn't providing the information in attempt to prove anything to you.

But, you won't answer my question. How can Cheney state something like that without a single memo supporting such ludicrous claims?

You would think the SOB would have learned his lesson regarding lying to the people...apparently not.

If torture actually saves lives, then google it and find one lousy source from even one of our 16 intel/defense agencies supporting it.

What's even more troubling....Chistians in our country are 50% higher pro torture than non Chistians here in the US.

What the crap are these churches preaching every Sunday?

Footwedge;1145677 wrote:What's even more troubling....Chistians in our country are 50% higher pro torture than non Chistians here in the US

Really? 50%? Got a link or two from a leftist hack site to back-up your claim?

Footwedge;1145677 wrote:What the crap are these churches preaching every Sunday?

My Sunday school class is entitled, "Bible Thumping & Waterboarding...How We All Bear the Cross." :rolleyes:

Footwedge;1145677 wrote:But, you won't answer my question. How can Cheney state something like that without a single memo supporting such ludicrous claims?

...

???

I did too answer your question.

I would assume he could state it because he believes it and wasn't providing the information in attempt to prove anything to you.

He truly believes it. He isn't trying to prove it to anyone, especially you or me.

Torture, errr, I mean waterboarding, works:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57422476/ex-cia-chief-defends-waterboarding-of-al-qaeda-leader/

How long before sleep depriviation, lengthy interrogation under a bright light, etc, etc, are deemed to be "torture"?

Jose Rodriguez has no regrets about using the "enhanced interrogation
techniques" - methods that some consider torture -- on al Qaeda detainees
questioned after 9/11 and denies charges they didn't work. The former head of
the CIA's Clandestine Service talks to Lesley Stahl about those methods,
including waterboarding, for the first time and defends their use - even
comparing them to the current policy of killing al Qaeda leaders with drone
strikes. The Rodriguez interview will be broadcast on 60 Minutes Sunday, April
29 at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

Rodriguez says everything his interrogators did to top-level terrorists like
Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah was legal and effective. "We made some al
Qaeda terrorists with American blood on their hands uncomfortable for a few
days," he tells Stahl. "I am very secure in what we did and am very confident
that what we did saved American lives," says Rodriguez, who has written a book
on the subject called "Hard Measures."

JHay...SMFH. Post an official document from any of our 16 intel ops that confirm that horsehit. Do ou want me to post an article showing that turturing an Al Quada major operative enhanced the lies that Saddam was complicit in 9-11?

Just because some a$$hole is trying to defer criminality in our exclusion of international laws...does not legitimize said practices.

Christians by far and away over secularists somehow condone torture. As a fellow Christian, I pray for their utter stupidity..and hope they seek penance for their own personal demons and sate for inflicting pain.