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Con_Alma

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12,198 posts
Apr 25, 2012 7:40 AM
enigmaax;1152188 wrote:Like anything, though, some people struggle with their vices, right? And sometimes they just say **** it and don't even try to curb them. But that doesn't mean they don't love the people that those vices hurt. Or that they suddenly don't believe or welcome Jesus.

In those cases, does God get mad at them? Is he disappointed? Saddened? Or are all of those responses too humanized for God to feel?

I don't know if God has human "feeling" or not but there are clear indications in the old testament of God not be pleased with mankind's actions.

One can't be without sin. It's the effort to be sinless that matters as opposed to being sinless. The effort can be transforming.
Apr 25, 2012 7:40am
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enigmaax

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4,511 posts
Apr 25, 2012 7:47 AM
Con_Alma;1152193 wrote:It's the effort to be sinless that matters as opposed to being sinless.
That matters to whom?
Apr 25, 2012 7:47am
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Skyhook79

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5,739 posts
Apr 25, 2012 8:41 AM
enigmaax;1152184 wrote:I understand a person may be taking chances by waiting until the last minute. But I'm more confused by another part of it. Many Christians I know (not all, but I want to get your view on these particular ones) are quite judgmental toward the particular sins of others. For example, homosexuals take a beating. Now, my understanding is that homosexuality is no different a "rule" than any other sin or act that God wishes you wouldn't do. So, it is highly possible that according to the way you've presented it, plenty of gays are going to heaven. Just like plenty of adulterers and thieves and what not are also going to be there. Because they truly believed, even if they didn't make a lot of what another Christian might call "good choices".

Earlier, someone said we are born into sin and can't avoid it. So committing sin or trying you best to avoid it doesn't have one bit of influence on where you spend your eternity (according to the Christian system). I love my dad, but I don't do everything he says. I mean well, but we disagree on a lot of things. It is really no different to your God, right? Accept Jesus and you're cool. He wishes you'd do some other things, but those actions really don't determine anything at all, correct?

1. If they are they shouldn't especially the non-believer:


[LEFT][LEFT]1 Corinthians 5:9-13 NIV[/LEFT]
[/LEFT]
[INDENT][LEFT]I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.[/LEFT]
[/INDENT]
[INDENT][LEFT]What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?


2. If they truly repent then Yes, again God knows their heart:

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.


3. Even after you accept Jesus yes you are going to do some things wrong and still sin but it's your mindset and if you are knowingly doing it, but saying actions don't determine anything at all is not correct:


Hebrews 10: 26 For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, or raging fire that will consume the enemies.


2 Peter 2: 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for a person is slave to whatever has defeated him. 20 Indeed, if they have once escaped the pollutions of the world through knowing our Lord and Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah, and then have again become entangled and defeated by them, their latter condition has become worse than their former. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the Way of righteousness than, fully knowing, to turn from the holy command delivered to them.
[/LEFT]
[/INDENT]
Apr 25, 2012 8:41am
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enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Apr 25, 2012 8:51 AM
Skyhook79;1152236 wrote:
3. Even after you accept Jesus yes you are going to do some things wrong and still sin but it's your mindset and if you are knowingly doing it, but saying actions don't determine anything at all is not correct:

Hebrews 10: 26 For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, or raging fire that will consume the enemies.


2 Peter 2: 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for a person is slave to whatever has defeated him. 20 Indeed, if they have once escaped the pollutions of the world through knowing our Lord and Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah, and then have again become entangled and defeated by them, their latter condition has become worse than their former. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the Way of righteousness than, fully knowing, to turn from the holy command delivered to them.

Okay, then let's revisit this:
except if you break one of his rules, you'll go to a place of fire for eternity.

Skyhook79;1151853 wrote:False statement but that has never stopped you before.
So you can accept him, but still go to hell for breaking his rules?
Apr 25, 2012 8:51am
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enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Apr 25, 2012 8:59 AM
Skyhook79;1152236 wrote:[LEFT][LEFT]1 Corinthians 5:9-13 NIV[/LEFT]

[/LEFT]
[INDENT][LEFT]I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
Also, a few things stand out here. You guys aren't even supposed to talk to people who are sexually immoral, greedy, or drunkards? Doesn't that severely limit your options? And I'm just going to go ahead and say, I know a lot of Christians who can put down the alcohol. Are they all bad Christians? Are they all going to hell?[/LEFT]
[/INDENT]
Apr 25, 2012 8:59am
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Skyhook79

Senior Member

5,739 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:02 AM
enigmaax;1152241 wrote:Okay, then let's revisit this:

[/B]



So you can accept him, but still go to hell for breaking his rules?

The verse says "deliberately CONTINUE to sin" and "the terrifying PROSPECT of judgement or raging fire,"

sleeper said for breaking ONE rule.

Continuing to sin to me is a lifestyle of sinning several times knowingly after you said you accepted Christ and God makes it clear that the prospect of that lifestyle could be an eternity in hell.
Apr 25, 2012 9:02am
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Skyhook79

Senior Member

5,739 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:06 AM
enigmaax;1152247 wrote:Also, a few things stand out here. You guys aren't even supposed to talk to people who are sexually immoral, greedy, or drunkards? Doesn't that severely limit your options? And I'm just going to go ahead and say, I know a lot of Christians who can put down the alcohol. Are they all bad Christians? Are they all going to hell?[/LEFT]
[/INDENT]
The verse says people who claim to be Christians we are not to associate with ,not the non-believer thats why the verse says "Not at all meaning the people of this world" of this world is talking about the non-believer, until they (the believer) repent of the sin they are struggling with.
Apr 25, 2012 9:06am
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enigmaax

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4,511 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:09 AM
Skyhook79;1152249 wrote:The verse says "deliberately CONTINUE to sin" and "the terrifying PROSPECT of judgement or raging fire,"

sleeper said for breaking ONE rule.

Continuing to sin to me is a lifestyle of sinning several times knowingly after you said you accepted Christ and God makes it clear that the prospect of that lifestyle could be an eternity in hell.
I'm seriously not being a smartass, but what if you continue to break the same rule? I'm interested in your personal opinion based on your belief, assume each of the following people has accepted Christ and makes a reasonable effort to avoid other sins, but has this one vice. Who is going to heaven?

A guy who bangs dudes
A guy who isn't married and bangs chics
A guy who drinks too much
A guy who rips off consumers
Apr 25, 2012 9:09am
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enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:10 AM
Skyhook79;1152254 wrote:The verse says people who claim to be Christians we are not to associate with ,not the non-believer thats why the verse says "Not at all meaning the people of this world" of this world is talking about the non-believer, until they (the believer) repent of the sin they are struggling with.
Okay, I guess that makes sense. So if you go to church with someone who you know is banging chics out of wedlock, you aren't supposed to talk to that person? Or if you go to church with a person who gets drunk every Saturday night? These people are off limits to you?
Apr 25, 2012 9:10am
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Skyhook79

Senior Member

5,739 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:11 AM
enigmaax;1152247 wrote:Also, a few things stand out here. You guys aren't even supposed to talk to people who are sexually immoral, greedy, or drunkards? Doesn't that severely limit your options? And I'm just going to go ahead and say, I know a lot of Christians who can put down the alcohol. Are they all bad Christians? Are they all going to hell?[/LEFT]
[/INDENT]
"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Cor 6:12

Is the alcohol mastering them?

"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit." Ephesians 5:18

Are they drinking to get drunk?

"Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak." 1 Cor 8:9

Is their drinking a stumbling block for you?
Apr 25, 2012 9:11am
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enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:18 AM
Skyhook79;1152260 wrote:"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Cor 6:12

Is the alcohol mastering them?

"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit." Ephesians 5:18

Are they drinking to get drunk?

"Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak." 1 Cor 8:9

Is their drinking a stumbling block for you?
Permissable toward what end? To get into heaven?
Apr 25, 2012 9:18am
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Skyhook79

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5,739 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:19 AM
enigmaax;1152258 wrote:Okay, I guess that makes sense. So if you go to church with someone who you know is banging chics out of wedlock, you aren't supposed to talk to that person? Or if you go to church with a person who gets drunk every Saturday night? These people are off limits to you?


We (believers) are commanded to hold each other accountable and make each other stronger. God has given us a brilliant plan for this that keeps all close by his side.First make sure your friend has actually “sinned” and not just done something that you didn’t like. What scripture have they violated?.

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed.The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Matthew 18:15-22
If your brother sins go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as Gentile and a tax collector.
Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.”
Apr 25, 2012 9:19am
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enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:20 AM
Skyhook79;1152260 wrote:"Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak." 1 Cor 8:9
So, if Person A can drink and handle it, but Person B can't and is influenced by Person A, then Person A is the bad person because he/she was supposed to be the "strong" one?
Apr 25, 2012 9:20am
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enigmaax

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4,511 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:22 AM
Skyhook79;1152266 wrote:Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.”
I think we're getting somewhere now. The mulligans have been quantified at 490, yes?
Apr 25, 2012 9:22am
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Skyhook79

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5,739 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:23 AM
enigmaax;1152265 wrote:Permissable toward what end? To get into heaven?
Permissible meaning God has given us free will to make choices. Not all of our choices are going to be beneficial but not necessarily sins. I could chose to get in my car and not wear a seatbelt. That is not a sin but could be not beneficial to me. I could choose to stop at the local bar and have a drink and a friend (non believer) see me and then think what a hypocrite a Christian in a bar. It's not a sin but it could be not beneficial for me.
Apr 25, 2012 9:23am
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Skyhook79

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5,739 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:27 AM
enigmaax;1152269 wrote:I think we're getting somewhere now. The mulligans have been quantified at 490, yes?
The point of that verse is to show how much God/Jesus forgives us. Many people do not come to know Jesus until later in life (like me at age 36) and have racked up quite a 'rap sheet". we are to forgive just as Jesus forgives our past sins and present ones. It is not Jesus giving us a "mulligan" to just knowingly continue sinning.
Apr 25, 2012 9:27am
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Con_Alma

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12,198 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:31 AM
enigmaax;1152200 wrote:That matters to whom?
...he who is seeking to avoid sin.
Apr 25, 2012 9:31am
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enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:44 AM
Con_Alma;1152278 wrote:...he who is seeking to avoid sin.
So does the effort matter to God? More specifically, does one have to "accept Jesus" AND make a reasonable effort to avoid sin in order to get into heaven?

In one of the previously quoted lines, there was something about being better off to have never "known" than to have known and deliberately turned away. So example. A person sins for a long time. Then finds Jesus. Then makes no effort to stop a particular sin for a long time. Presumably that person is going to hell, right? The person doesn't feel as though he/she has lost Jesus, but Jesus does? But then say it hits the person again and he/she gets back into the proper lifestyle. And eventually falls back into the same habits. Is Jesus really pissed off then? Will the person keep re-earning a spot in heaven by re-discovering that proper lifestyle every so often?
Apr 25, 2012 9:44am
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Con_Alma

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12,198 posts
Apr 25, 2012 9:54 AM
enigmaax;1152295 wrote:So does the effort matter to God? More specifically, does one have to "accept Jesus" AND make a reasonable effort to avoid sin in order to get into heaven?

In one of the previously quoted lines, there was something about being better off to have never "known" than to have known and deliberately turned away. So example. A person sins for a long time. Then finds Jesus. Then makes no effort to stop a particular sin for a long time. Presumably that person is going to hell, right? The person doesn't feel as though he/she has lost Jesus, but Jesus does? But then say it hits the person again and he/she gets back into the proper lifestyle. And eventually falls back into the same habits. Is Jesus really pissed off then? Will the person keep re-earning a spot in heaven by re-discovering that proper lifestyle every so often?

The heart matters to God. When acceptance is in the heart a person shows signs outwardly through their actions. I don't know if theirs some definite black and white line like you are seeking. I do know when a person feels the presence of the Holy Spirit that those issues become irrelevant and the desire to follow Him exists and is evident.
Apr 25, 2012 9:54am
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Skyhook79

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5,739 posts
Apr 25, 2012 10:03 AM
enigmaax;1152295 wrote:So does the effort matter to God? More specifically, does one have to "accept Jesus" AND make a reasonable effort to avoid sin in order to get into heaven?

In one of the previously quoted lines, there was something about being better off to have never "known" than to have known and deliberately turned away. So example. A person sins for a long time. Then finds Jesus. Then makes no effort to stop a particular sin for a long time. Presumably that person is going to hell, right? The person doesn't feel as though he/she has lost Jesus, but Jesus does? But then say it hits the person again and he/she gets back into the proper lifestyle. And eventually falls back into the same habits. Is Jesus really pissed off then? Will the person keep re-earning a spot in heaven by re-discovering that proper lifestyle every so often?
[h=4]John 3[/h][h=5]Jesus Teaches Nicodemus[/h] [SUP]1[/SUP] Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. [SUP]2[/SUP] He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” [SUP]3[/SUP] Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[SUP][a][/SUP]”
[SUP]4[/SUP] “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
[SUP]5[/SUP] Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. [SUP]6[/SUP]Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[SUP][b][/SUP] gives birth to spirit. [SUP]7[/SUP]You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[SUP][c][/SUP] must be born again.’ [SUP]8[/SUP] The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[SUP][d]





[/SUP]
Apr 25, 2012 10:03am
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sleeper

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27,879 posts
Apr 25, 2012 10:04 AM
Con_Alma;1152298 wrote:The heart matters to God. When acceptance is in the heart a person shows signs outwardly through their actions. I don't know if theirs some definite black and white line like you are seeking. I do know when a person feels the presence of the Holy Spirit that those issues become irrelevant and the desire to follow Him exists and is evident.
People feel the same way when they join a cult. The desire trespasses the logical reason of someone's mind and then the mind blindly follows the cult leader. The cult leader gives them hope, especially after the cult leader drains the entire person's intellectual and financial wealth, and then they have nothing.
Apr 25, 2012 10:04am
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Skyhook79

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5,739 posts
Apr 25, 2012 10:06 AM
enigmaax;1152295 wrote:So does the effort matter to God? More specifically, does one have to "accept Jesus" AND make a reasonable effort to avoid sin in order to get into heaven?

In one of the previously quoted lines, there was something about being better off to have never "known" than to have known and deliberately turned away. So example. A person sins for a long time. Then finds Jesus. Then makes no effort to stop a particular sin for a long time. Presumably that person is going to hell, right? The person doesn't feel as though he/she has lost Jesus, but Jesus does? But then say it hits the person again and he/she gets back into the proper lifestyle. And eventually falls back into the same habits. Is Jesus really pissed off then? Will the person keep re-earning a spot in heaven by re-discovering that proper lifestyle every so often?
You can't earn you way to heaven, it is by Grace we are saved.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--"
Ephesians 2:8

"that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)"
Ephesians 2:5
Apr 25, 2012 10:06am
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sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Apr 25, 2012 10:06 AM
I'm thinking of bringing out the Illiad and quoting random passages to justify my belief. What a joke.
Apr 25, 2012 10:06am
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enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Apr 25, 2012 10:18 AM
Skyhook79;1152315 wrote:You can't earn you way to heaven, it is by Grace we are saved.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--"
Ephesians 2:8

"that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)"
Ephesians 2:5
Lol.
Apr 25, 2012 10:18am
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vball10set

paying it forward

24,795 posts
Apr 25, 2012 10:21 AM
sleeper;1152316 wrote:I'm thinking of bringing out the Illiad and quoting random passages to justify my belief. What a joke.
I'm an Odyssey guy myself :cool:
Apr 25, 2012 10:21am