Al Bundy;1133646 wrote:A person can't get any pleasure or enjoyment out of life without having a cell phone and a Big Mac?

they would not be by themselves, but they are representative of a wide range of items that regressive taxing help to deprive poor people.

isadore;1133651 wrote:they would not be by themselves, but they are representative of a wide range of items that regressive taxing help to deprive poor people.

So in Isaland, we just hand out cell phones (or whatever toy someone wants) instead of teaching people to develop a work ethic and saving mentality to get the extras that they want in life?

Al Bundy;1133657 wrote:So in Isaland, we just hand out cell phones (or whatever toy someone wants) instead of teaching people to develop a work ethic and saving mentality to get the extras that they want in life?

1. the discussion was about the effects of a consumption tax and it does hurt the poor the most. when they have to pay that tax when they buy items that are such a basic part of our lives, this tax hurts them far worse than anyone in the1%. 2. Oh gosh a ruddies lets teach these poor, a little suffering will be real character building for them, since of course they must have no character because they are poor. tvs, cellphones are pretty basic in our society, but hell they are poor let them suffer.

isadore;1133660 wrote:1. the discussion was about the effects of a consumption tax and it does hurt the poor the most. when they have to pay that tax when they buy items that are such a basic part of our lives, this tax hurts them far worse than anyone in the1%. 2. Oh gosh a ruddies lets teach these poor, a little suffering will be real character building for them, since of course they must have no character because they are poor. tvs, cellphones are pretty basic in our society, but hell they are poor let them suffer.

Maybe this is where we disagree. I don't believe that a cell phone or tv are basic needs in life. I went my first 29 years of life without a cell phone and some miracle I survived. I have gone times in my life without TV. I use the TV mostly to watch news and sports and could survive quite easily without it.

When I think of basic needs in life, I think of food and shelter. We have many places where people can get food and shelter through government programs and through church programs.

Al Bundy;1133665 wrote:Maybe this is where we disagree. I don't believe that a cell phone or tv are basic needs in life. I went my first 29 years of life without a cell phone and some miracle I survived. I have gone times in my life without TV. I use the TV mostly to watch news and sports and could survive quite easily without it.

When I think of basic needs in life, I think of food and shelter. We have many places where people can get food and shelter through government programs and through church programs.

clothing, healthcare? And with a cell phone and a TV what other alternatives were availabl eo you. dd you have a land line, did you rent or own dvds, own and play video games, have a computer? A land line or cell is basic and you pay a regressive tax on them. OTC medicines are often basic and you pay a regressive tax on them. Underwear is basic for most of us and you pay a sales tax on it. Of course you would have the poor get only used underwear, it will help to build their character and teach them to save.

isadore;1133669 wrote:clothing, healthcare? And with a cell phone and a TV what other alternatives were availabl eo you. dd you have a land line, did you rent or own dvds, own and play video games, have a computer? A land line or cell is basic and you pay a regressive tax on them. OTC medicines are often basic and you pay a regressive tax on them. Underwear is basic for most of us and you pay a sales tax on it. Of course you would have the poor get only used underwear, it will help to build their character and teach them to save.

New underwear costs about a $1 a pair. Most communities have clinics to take care of basic healthcare needs. A person can use a computer and get DVDs at the library. These are meant to be temporary solutions while someone finds a job.

Al Bundy;1133672 wrote:New underwear costs about a $1 a pair. Most communities have clinics to take care of basic healthcare needs. A person can use a computer and get DVDs at the library. These are meant to be temporary solutions while someone finds a job.

You can of course take the dvds home and read the box for entertainment but if you want to get the full enjoyment of them you need a ______ . While I am sure you would prefer the poor get their clothes out of rag bins left by the rich that would build their character What is provided for the poor many of the poor is not good preventive medical care. What they get is a ride to the emergency room. Until they find a job, LOL. A job at minimum wage where out of their small salary they have to pay regressive consumption taxes.

isadore;1133679 wrote:You can of course take the dvds home and read the box for entertainment but if you want to get the full enjoyment of them you need a ______ . While I am sure you would prefer the poor get their clothes out of rag bins left by the rich that would build their character What is provided for the poor many of the poor is not good preventive medical care. What they get is a ride to the emergency room. Until they find a job, LOL. A job at minimum wage where out of their small salary they have to pay regressive consumption taxes.

Minimum wage is meant as a starting point or part-time job. I know I made minimum wage when I was in my teens. Many people have started at minimum wage. If a person works hard, he/she can move up to a better wage. There are all kinds of companies that start with minimum wage jobs that lead into management training programs.

Al Bundy;1133683 wrote:Minimum wage is meant as a starting point or part-time job. I know I made minimum wage when I was in my teens. Many people have started at minimum wage. If a person works hard, he/she can move up to a better wage. There are all kinds of companies that start with minimum wage jobs that lead into management training programs.

And I made minimum wage when I was in my teens, so what. When I made it I was not the sole support of myself. I could put money in the bank for college, I could buy clothes. I knew I would have a roof over my head and food in my belly.
And there are all kinds of places where minimum wage jobs lead nowhere. We have high unemployment rate. We have much structural unemployment with jobs of a lifetime disappearing. It is so easy for use who have an education, stable employment, resources to condemn those who do not. Gosh if they would only work harder and save on that $8 an hour, they could be us.

isadore;1133685 wrote:And I made minimum wage when I was in my teens, so what. When I made it I was not the sole support of myself. I could put money in the bank for college, I could buy clothes. I knew I would have a roof over my head and food in my belly.
And there are all kinds of places where minimum wage jobs lead nowhere. We have high unemployment rate. We have much structural unemployment with jobs of a lifetime disappearing. It is so easy for use who have an education, stable employment, resources to condemn those who do not. Gosh if they would only work harder and save on that $8 an hour, they could be us.

Everyone in this country is offered an opportunity of education. Some take advantage of it, and some don't. Each choice has consequences to it. Even if someone made poor choices when young, there are still several adult education opportunites available to people who want them.

Al Bundy;1133689 wrote:Everyone in this country is offered an opportunity of education. Some take advantage of it, and some don't. Each choice has consequences to it. Even if someone made poor choices when young, there are still several adult education opportunites available to people who want them.

We have a system that claims equal opportunity but provides the worst education for the poor, then act like there is a level playing field.
America social mobility is the worst among modern industrialized nations
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all
“One reason for the mobility gap may be the depth of American poverty, which leaves poor children starting especially far behind. Another may be the unusually large premiums that American employers pay for college degrees. Since children generally follow their parents’ educational trajectory, that premium increases the importance of family background and stymies people with less schooling. “

isadore;1133697 wrote:We have a system that claims equal opportunity but provides the worst education for the poor, then act like there is a level playing field.
America social mobility is the worst among modern industrialized nations
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all
“One reason for the mobility gap may be the depth of American poverty, which leaves poor children starting especially far behind. Another may be the unusually large premiums that American employers pay for college degrees. Since children generally follow their parents’ educational trajectory, that premium increases the importance of family background and stymies people with less schooling. “

So we are all victims to the choices of our parents? I have seen good kids come from bad families and bad kids come from good families. How does that happened if our lives are all predetermined by our parents lives? Is it possible that each person makes choices that influence his/her future?

Al Bundy;1133711 wrote:So we are all victims to the choices of our parents? I have seen good kids come from bad families and bad kids come from good families. How does that happened if our lives are all predetermined by our parents lives? Is it possible that each person makes choices that influence his/her future?

it definitely place large obstacles and a few anecdotes does not change the fact that we are increasingly becoming a stratified society of haves and haves not. that the chance for people to rise is increasingly difficult. We have people on here arguing to limit the right of the poor to adequate healthcare, legal representation and educational opportunity. And for a tax system that throws increasing tax burden on them. All these increase benefits for the 1%. Social mobility down the tubes.

isadore;1133660 wrote:1. the discussion was about the effects of a consumption tax and it does hurt the poor the most

If you can't afford the tax, then you certainly can't afford the item being taxed.

There's only so much money you can raise with taxes. You can't give everything to the poor you have to establish some minimally acceptable standard. The poverty line is quite a comfortable living compared to about 95% of the world's population. "Adequate" is a level well below what the 1% can and do afford, yet you argue that any such lower level of public assistance handed out in your commie utopia is inadequate.

There are basics that all people should be guaranteed. A cell phone is not one of them. Quality or "enjoying" life is not something we should seek to provide but rather ensure one has the opportunity to pursue that. Note in the Constitution it says "the right to life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness". Curious inclusion of the word "pursuit", no? Liberals would have us ignore that and argue that happiness is an inalienable right.

isadore;1133722 wrote:it definitely place large obstacles and a few anecdotes does not change the fact that we are increasingly becoming a stratified society of haves and haves not. that the chance for people to rise is increasingly difficult. We have people on here arguing to limit the right of the poor to adequate healthcare, legal representation and educational opportunity. And for a tax system that throws increasing tax burden on them. All these increase benefits for the 1%. Social mobility down the tubes.

I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that no one on this site is in the top 1% of wealth in the US. I have not seen anyone say that the poor should be denied healthcare, legal represenation, education, etc.

gut;1133725 wrote:If you can't afford the tax, then you certainly can't afford the item being taxed.

There's only so much money you can raise with taxes. You can't give everything to the poor you have to establish some minimally acceptable standard. The poverty line is quite a comfortable living compared to about 95% of the world's population.

There are basics that all people should be guaranteed. A cell phone is not one of them. Quality or "enjoying" life is not something we should seek to provide but rather ensure one has the opportunity to pursue that. Note in the Constitution it says "the right to life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness". Curious inclusion of the word "pursuit", no? Liberals would have us ignore that and argue that happiness is an inalienable right.

So when the poor finally have the money to buy an item you want a tax added on to it to deprive them of more of their very limited resources. A regressive doesn’t hurt the rich to pay that tax, it takes vital economic resource away from the poor.
I realize you feel the Americans living at the poverty level have “quite comfortable living.” For you they should be crawling around a Mumbai garbage dump and lining up for their next meal in Darfur. The bulk of industrialized nations of the world do not believe that any of their citizens should live like that even if you don’t. As pay phones disappear, a cell phone or land line is a basic.
As can be seen by the declining social mobility in America, “the pursuit of happiness” is increasingly being denied to poor Americans as we become an increasingly stratified society.

Al Bundy;1133727 wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that no one on this site is in the top 1% of wealth in the US. I have not seen anyone say that the poor should be denied healthcare, legal represenation, education, etc.

who is on this site, male, white, college educated most surely not even close to the bottom two quintiles in our social structure. And if you have read this thread we have people who are quite fine with inadequate legal representation, poor healthcare and a third rate education damning the poor for generation upon generation.

isadore;1133751 wrote:who is on this site, male, white, college educated most surely not even close to the bottom two quintiles in our social structure. And if you have read this thread we have people who are quite fine with inadequate legal representation, poor healthcare and a third rate education damning the poor for generation upon generation.

So now you are mad at the top 60% instead of the top 1%? That is a huge difference.

isadore;1133751 wrote: And if you have read this thread we have people who are quite fine with inadequate legal representation, poor healthcare and a third rate education damning the poor for generation upon generation.

By what standard is their legal representation inadequate, healthcare poor, and education 3rd rate? All bullshit, especially the last point.

Al Bundy;1133760 wrote:So now you are mad at the top 60% instead of the top 1%? That is a huge difference.

No I am unhappy with the way our system treats the poor and favors the 1%.
what we have here are the group that has some resources and are most likely to have some social mobility. They are fartherest way from the people most likely to be in poverty. Who is more likely to be non-white, single mothers with limited education.

Al Bundy;1133760 wrote:So now you are mad at the top 60% instead of the top 1%? That is a huge difference.

Just the white college-educated males. Commiedore is starting to show her true colors.

isadore;1133769 wrote:No I am unhappy with the way our system treats the poor and favors the 1%.
what we have here are the group that has some resources and are most likely to have some social mobility. They are fartherest way from the people most likely to be in poverty. Who is more likely to be non-white, single mothers with limited education.

Most of the people here that disagree with you are in the 99% that you are supposedly trying to demonstrate the views of.

gut;1133768 wrote:By what standard is their legal representation inadequate, healthcare poor, and education 3rd rate? All bull****, especially the last point.

all my statements are true. And education, where are the worst schools in the poor districts. You get the same education in our wealthy suburbs, right. LOL. From Kindergarten on up, those kids are buried.

Al Bundy;1133774 wrote:Most of the people here that disagree with you are in the 99% that you are supposedly trying to demonstrate the views of.

some on this site may very well be in the 1% and the large majority of the rest have characteristics that give them a somewhat better chance at social mobility with many more resources than those that suffer in our system.

We can see the true feelings of the 99% in their feeling that the taxes on the rich are too low.