Steel Valley Football;1073288 wrote:I contend that you do and can likely prove it.

Lol. OK. I'm intrigued. How does one prove my interest in appealing to another?

What makes you believe you could provide proof against whether I have interest in providing appeal for the benefit of other people?

How do you verify someone's* interest or lack thereof?

I have to run out for a client. I will post in an hour or two, sorry.

OK. Good luck. Make some money!

dwccrew;1072779 wrote:/Con_Alma'd and /sleeper'd in the same post? Epic win.

And a Hall of Fame nominee thread!

Steel Valley Football;1073285 wrote:Assume Zwick's local housing market is down around 25% for our example over the last five years. Five years ago, Zwick paid/built for $200k and the new house he wants was built/sold for $400k.

The current market value of Zwicks house is $150k and the new house is $300k. Should he take the $50k loss to buy the $400k house at a $100k discount? The only solid data we have about the market is that it is cyclical.

I think that's what he is asking anyway. With different numbers obviously.

Yes, I think that's essentially the question.

What makes it trickier is that the house he bought 5 years ago may have a mortgage at 6%, while he could get a mortgage at 3.75% now. If he waits a year or two, that opportunity may pass. Additionally, he'll have to pay closing costs/realtor commissions that mess with the numbers.

If the end goal is for him to end up in the larger home, my sense is that it's probably worth it to take the hit now, since he'll pay the commission at some point, and the interest rate is likely never going to get better. If he's otherwise satisfied with where he is and is okay staying there forever, or if the place he moves may be an in-between to the place he really wants, it may be worth it to gut it out a year or two and then buy the dream home.

Another factor to consider is whether the more expensive home will appreciate and recoup its losses at a faster rate. I suspect that will depend on the local market. Here, modest homes (say, <$150k) haven't lost much value at all, nor have super expensive homes (say, >$1 MM). But lots of homes in-between ($300-600k) have taken a beating. The nuances of the local market may mean that the two homes won't appreciate at the same rate (though, as you point out, if they do, then the bigger home is going to be a better buy).

A final issue that just came to mind is the opportunity cost of the $12k he'd have to fork over. Depending on his debt/savings/investment situation, the cost of that money can be very different (and that's what ultimately swayed us a month ago when we were in this same situation--we could use the money to knock off student loan debt, which is a conservative way to go, and then figured we'd wait out the market another year or two before making a move). If the alternative is to have the money in a savings account at 0.2% interest, that's another story.

Con_Alma;1073295 wrote:Lol. OK. I'm intrigued. How does one prove my interest in appealing to another?

What makes you believe you could provide proof against whether I have interest in providing appeal for the benefit of other people?

How do you verify someone's* interest or lack thereof?

I'm not saying I can prove you have an interest in appealing to another as that was never the question, but I believe you are concerned with curb appeal...even though you may not know it.

Curb appeal is usually the result of typical or normal upkeep and maintenance and not necessarily an extraordinary attempt at improving your property. Its normally not somethng you would do to impress the neighbors, like some might attempt by adding an addition or a new porch.

Think of yourself as a house. You, much like the average person, perform typical upkeep...bathing, haircuts, buying clothes that fit or match, etc. Normal stuff. People who don't do this are typically societal deviants or at least considered dirty or sloven. In real estate terms, those people would be considered to have "deferred maintenance". Houses without proper lawn care or cleaning, for example, have deferred maintenance and do NOT have curb appeal.

So, my point is that you are likely concerned with curb appeal by default and without much conscious effort by doing the average and normal upkeep. If you mow your lawn or wash your windows or siding, you are adding to the curb appeal of your house. And, my guess is you do those things with no one else in mind...except maybe your wife who might nag you to get them done lol.

Maintenance is not curb appeal.

I am confident of that.

The area between the road and my house is pure, untouched wild growth. It is thick brush and trees. The only public place you can see my house* is from Lake Erie.

When I built the home I wanted that natural woods separating the view from the street to my home.


I can maintain my home and have it structurally healthy and it could still be God awful and unappealing visually.

I have no desire to make the view from the curb in front of my home more appealing. Curb appeal isn't an accident as a result of improving the soundness of the shelter itself. It's an intentional effort to make the sight of it appeasing. I don't do that nor do I have any intention of doing so.

I understand the potential for others to have such a desire with their home if they ever plan on selling it or want it to fit the surroundings of their neighborhood. I have no reason to...by design.

We talking about curb appeal?

Good point about the interest rates, although I don't see them moving much, if at all, until some time after the election.

Anyone know the tax treatment if you lose equity on a sale of a home? Is that a loss that can offset other capital gains? That would certainly mitigate some of the $12k. Ultimately $12k extra over a 30-yr mortgage (if we look at it that way, and assuming he really is losing $12k) isn't that much on a monthly/annual basis if you really like the other house.

I also think the OP is getting hung-up over a perceived loss because he paid more when, in reality, he may be getting FMV. What you paid shouldn't be a factor - it really has nothing to do with what you can or should be getting. The only question here is what do you really think you can get for your house and if the offer is unacceptable relative to your opportunity costs (risks this is the best offer, finding another house you love at a good price, etc...).

You can always debate what the max or fair value is for your house. You can always question whether you could get more. I would say, in this market, if you sell your house for 95% of asking (and I assume the realtor properly priced with your goals in mind) within 2 wks take the money and run. Now if the asking price were $60k and this offer is $48k (-20%), then maybe you've been lowballed and might want to reconsider.

$12k is nothing to sneeze at, but it's also maybe not worth having that anchor around your neck for months and months trying to get what may only be a few grand more, if that. But for a little perspective....at a 4% interest rate, an "extra" $12k on a new $200k mortgage works out to $57.29 more per month (maybe $45 a month after taxes). That certainly wouldn't stop me from getting the house I want.

Con_Alma;1073774 wrote:Maintenance is not curb appeal.

I am confident of that.

The area between the road and my house is pure, untouched wild growth. It is thick brush and trees. The only public place you can see my house* is from Lake Erie.

When I built the home I wanted that natural woods separating the view from the street to my home.


I can maintain my home and have it structurally healthy and it could still be God awful and unappealing visually.

I have no desire to make the view from the curb in front of my home more appealing. Curb appeal isn't an accident as a result of improving the soundness of the shelter itself. It's an intentional effort to make the sight of it appeasing. I don't do that nor do I have any intention of doing so.

I understand the potential for others to have such a desire with their home if they ever plan on selling it or want it to fit the surroundings of their neighborhood. I have no reason to...by design.

Your home still has curb appeal and the level it has is a result of the level of maintenance you perform on it. A house can still have curb appeal if it doesn't have a curb. Thats where you're getting off track. Just because your house can't be viewed from the street doesn't mean it cant have curb appeal.

Oh! Lord please for give me for I have said "curb appeaL" :laugh:

If our dear and good friend Con Alma would just admit he's special we could be done w it lol.

And I think dw would agree!

Steel Valley Football;1073928 wrote:Your home still has curb appeal and the level it has is a result of the level of maintenance you perform on it. A house can still have curb appeal if it doesn't have a curb. Thats where you're getting off track. Just because your house can't be viewed from the street doesn't mean it cant have curb appeal.

Lets try this again.

Steel Valley Football;1072177 wrote:Con Alma does not care about curb appeal. Especially in his basement.

Con_Alma;1072183 wrote:Areed. I have no interest in appealing at the curb to another with my residence but Belly's comment wasn't a suggestion for me it was a suggestion for Zwick and his situation. Mine has nothing to do with it.

What it has or doesn't have has not ever been the point.

My comments have always been I have not interest in curb appeal. I don't care about curb appeal. I have no reason to improve or even acknowledged that there is any curb appeal at all in my home. Fr some reason that has always upset you. I certainly don't' maintain it so that it's appealing. I Maintain it so that it properly gives me and my family shelter.

Steel Valley Football;1073556 wrote:I'm not saying I can prove you have an interest in appealing to another as that was never the question, but I believe you are concerned with curb appeal...even though you may not know it.
...

As you previously stated, you can't prove that I have an interest in curb appeal. It has indeed never been a question...not to me at least.

Please somebody curb-stomp SVF.

gut;1073801 wrote:
Anyone know the tax treatment if you lose equity on a sale of a home? Is that a loss that can offset other capital gains? That would certainly mitigate some of the $12k. Ultimately $12k extra over a 30-yr mortgage (if we look at it that way, and assuming he really is losing $12k) isn't that much on a monthly/annual basis if you really like the other house.

You can only take the loss on the house if the house was an investment property. If you sell an investment property for a loss, your loss may be deductible against your income. Investment properties are treated very similar to equity investments in this regard.

Con_Alma;1074047 wrote:What it has or doesn't have has not ever been the point.

My comments have always been I have not interest in curb appeal. I don't care about curb appeal. I have no reason to improve or even acknowledged that there is any curb appeal at all in my home. Fr some reason that has always upset you. I certainly don't' maintain it so that it's appealing. I Maintain it so that it properly gives me and my family shelter.

Curb appeal is the general appearance of your home from the exterior. If you have ever done anything at all to improve the exterior of your property, then you have improved it's curb appeal and it doesn't matter why you did it or if anyone even knows you did it. If you've ever mowed your lawn then you care about your home's curb appeal. You, Con Alma, have improved your home's curb appeal and that fact can not be debated.

Using your logic, you could say "I don't care anything at all about oil changes in my car" but then go out and change your oil as general maintenance. Your actions have then negated your comments. Exactly the same with your stance on curb appeal.



special con alma note: the above was a hypothetical example. con alma, please do not comment about your opinions on oil changes.

Tiernan;1074118 wrote:Please somebody curb-stomp SVF.

Go away until you can add something intelligent. Unless you want to meet me for a fight. At Put-In Bay. I'll be there this weekend.

Steel Valley Football;1074401 wrote:Curb appeal is the general appearance of your home from the exterior. If you have ever done anything at all to improve the exterior of your property, then you have improved it's curb appeal and it doesn't matter why you did it or if anyone even knows you did it....

This is subjective to taste. Not all changes, maintenance, makes something more appealing. Increasing longevity doesn't necessarily improve appeal.

You get to use an example for clarification and I can't comment on it? Why not?

Definition - "Curb appeal is attractiveness of the exterior of a residential or commercial property. The term was extensively used in the United States during the housing boom and continues to be used as an indicator of the initial appeal of a property to prospective buyers."

I don't want it to be attractive but rather the overgrown natural woods act hopefully as a deterrent and keep the home hidden to others. I don't want those who drive by to find it appealing but rather have no interest in it at all. Its my home not a museum. I will never sell it. I built it to live in it and die in it. What I do to it and in it I don't want othesr to see or even know of. It's not a trophy. It's a residence.

Con_Alma;1074422 wrote:Definition - "Curb appeal is attractiveness of the exterior of a residential or commercial property. The term was extensively used in the United States during the housing boom and continues to be used as an indicator of the initial appeal of a property to prospective buyers."

I don't want it to be attractive but rather the overgrown natural woods act hopefully as a deterrent and keep the home hidden to others. I don't want those who drive by to find it appealing but rather have no interest in it at all. Its my home not a museum. I will never sell it. I built it to live in it and die in it. What I do to it and in it I don't want othesr to see or even know of. It's not a trophy. It's a residence.

We get it - you don't care what others think. So what. You still have added to home's curb appeal. You just aren't calling it curb appeal. As mentioned, if you've ever mowed your lawn then you have done something to change the curb appeal. One could even argue that, based on this quoted post, that you've intentionally tried to reduced your perceived curb appeal. So, we've established that youve done things to add to and reduce your curb appeal. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, yours are the actions of someone concerned with curb appeal.

Steel Valley Football;1074550 wrote:We get it - you don't care what others think. So what. You still have added to home's curb appeal. You just aren't calling it curb appeal. ...

Can you share with me one thing I have added? What do you think I called it if you say I am not calling it curb appeal...what ever it is that you believe I've added.

Steel Valley Football;1074550 wrote:...As mentioned, if you've ever mowed your lawn then you have done something to change the curb appeal. ...

Change it? Isn't that keepng itthe same?

Steel Valley Football;1074550 wrote:..One could even argue that, based on this quoted post, that you've intentionally tried to reduced your perceived curb appeal.... .

I haven't reduce it. I simply let the natural wooded area grow. This all begn many moons ago when I stated that I don't care about curb appeal. I don't. I have no reason to.

Do you believe me yet?

Nope. Because you don't understand what curb appeal is. Just like you didn't understand what market value was. Your track record on these subjects is less than stellar.

Do you have a different definition than the one I copied and shared above? If so I'd love to hear and am open to it. The one I posted I clearly have no interest in nor desire to create.

Kids kids, will you quit bickering over stupid stuff!?