GoChiefs;706546 wrote:Power steering helps a lot when you are going from 140 mph down to 50 mph into a corner doesn't it? No, not much at all. Sitting in a hot car, for 4 hours, without any breaks. It's not the NFL, they don't get timeouts. I guess those same construction workers have more stamina then NFL players. I mean, they don't get 40-45 second breaks after doing 15 seconds worth of activity.

The difference with NFL players is they are actually doing the activity themselves, not a vehicle lol. The plays might be short, but they go through 10 second explosive bursts, which all add up. Soccer players run around a pitch for 90 minutes, wrestlers wrestle a match for 6-10 minutes straight or go through wrestling practice for 2 hours straight in a room that is probably just as hot as a nascar vehicle, basketball players are running around a court for 30+ minutes, marathoners are running 26 miles in the heat/cold, water polo players are treading water for 60 minutes while defenders are also trying to practically drown them, etc.


All those take much more stamina, athletic ability, and most importantly mental toughness than a racing competition.

GoChiefs;706555 wrote:And I replied. Point?

seriously? :rolleyes:

like_that;706559 wrote:All those take much more stamina, athletic ability, and most importantly mental toughness than a racing competition.

Again, that's your opinion. Prove it. Cause I say you're completely wrong. Football takes more mental toughness than a race? Come on man, get real. That is very laughable.

LJ;706561 wrote:seriously? :rolleyes:

Rly.

A couple of my refining opinions about sports and requirements to be called a sport.

1) If the idea of "hustle" doesn't apply, that activity is precluded from being a sport. If giving it more effort or just trying harder doesn't necessarily give you a slight edge in that moment then no. Is pressing on a gas pedal that much harder hustle? I don't believe so. Does pushing yourself that much more when wrestling another man, trying to outsprint someone to the finish line or sacrificing a bit more for the loose ball equal hustle? Yes.

2) If the activity in question is more about the instruments used than the humans competing in it, then no, it's not a sport. Let's first take a narrow look at racing first. Running and swimming are arguably the two most pure forms of racing as all it really requires is the athlete... especially running. Heck, everyone as a kid had races all the time with siblings or friends running. If you ever went to a pond, lake, ocean or pool you probably also raced swimming. Unprovoked you would do this and have races. Automotive, boat and horse racing is all more about the vehicle than the actual athlete. Sports to me are about athletic achievement with some support from technology. For example, shoes get better, attire becomes lighter. These are improvements, but ultimately the athlete is the key factor. However, in Nascar the key factor is the car. The sport itself doesn't display human athleticism. It's about the car. Now a very borderline sport using this criteria is something like downhill skiing either alpine or nordic, but in that case it's still more about the athlete. Now that was solely about racing sports. Team sports are also traditionally about the athletes, a sport like soccer is probably once again more purely about the athlete as there is very little gear and a simple ball, same with basketball; both of which are clearly sports. Under this prong though Football, Baseball and Hockey become more questionable because they use a lot of equipment or instruments to help the sport. But I think with all those it's still pretty clear the focus is on the athlete and not the instrumentality.

Do having both of these prongs automatically make something a sport? No. But they are requirements in my mind.

Also another key factor I consider: if an in-shape individual is not breaking a sweat after participating in a "round" of it then it is probably not a sport. This doesn't pertain to this discussion but rules out things such as Poker, Billiards, Darts, and Bowling which are most definitely games... and competitive. But not sports for the same reason Monopoly or Video games are not sports.

I say yes, based entirely on my own definition which includes most of the usual aspects of the common definition but one key: your actions or performance can directly impact your opponent's outcome. Basically, you can play defense, even if you are using a car. The high physical risk, again considering that your opponent can inflict injury (or death) upon you is another consideration.

To me, things like golf and swimming are contests, not sports.

I don't know (and don't care) if that makes drivers athletes, but there is no line drawn that says you have to be this strong or have that much stamina to play a sport.

enigmaax;706612 wrote:I say yes, based entirely on my own definition which includes most of the usual aspects of the common definition but one key: your actions or performance can directly impact your opponent's outcome. Basically, you can play defense, even if you are using a car. The high physical risk, again considering that your opponent can inflict injury (or death) upon you is another consideration.

To me, things like golf and swimming are contests, not sports.

I don't know (and don't care) if that makes drivers athletes, but there is no line drawn that says you have to be this strong or have that much stamina to play a sport.

I think you're using a flawed criteria. Take swimming and running for example:

Swimming. There are two types of races: Open Water and traditional swim meets (with lane lines in pools.) In Open Water races you can play defense (using body) to prevent people from passing just like in Nascar. Open water events are longer races such as a five mile swim or something to that regard. Or sometimes open water events are used as part of triathlons... once again, can use your body to "play defense." Where as the shorter races 100, 200, 500, 1000, 1650 Free, 100 and 200 Fly, 100 and 200 Breast, and 100 and 200 Back, are all done in pools. So the length of the race dictates how the event is swum and whether people can use the body, so therefore the length of the race effects whether it is considered a sport?

The exact same thing happens with running. The short events 400M and below people have lanes... they can't use their body to play defense. But the 800 and above they can use their body to play defense. So running is only a sport when it is 800M and above and not 400M and below?

Too me your criteria produces some very perplexing distinctions.

Also, I'd like to point out that this same effect occurs within automotive racing itself.

Edit:

Drag Racing vs. Track Racing. Drag racing is typically the short "sprint" events where people have lanes and Track Racing are the longer events with no lanes and defense.

If anything you should look at all of this and determine that there is a custom within the racing culture that certain shorter events are dependent on lanes to maintain competitive equality while in longer distances the lane distinction isn't as practical and doesn't have as big as an effect on the result.

The drivers in top physical condition have an edge on those who eat track concession food. Mark Martin is more athletic than any 50 year old I've ever seen. Carl Edwards is ripped. Mike Waltrip can run marathons. 66 year old Morgan Shepherd tackled an 18 year old thief in Vegas last week. They train to be in shape, to drive better under race conditions. Its easy to drive your passenger car 4 hours, not in a racecar.


Every time I type 'racecar' its spelled backwards.

Speedofsand;706629 wrote:The drivers in top physical condition have an edge on those who eat track concession food. Mark Martin is more athletic than any 50 year old I've ever seen. Carl Edwards is ripped. Mike Waltrip can run marathons. 66 year old Morgan Shepherd tackled an 18 year old thief in Vegas last week. They train to be in shape, to drive better under race conditions. Its easy to drive your passenger car 4 hours, not in a racecar.


Every time I type 'racecar' its spelled backwards.

I am not doubting you have to be in shape, but that still doesn't mean it makes NASCAR a sport.

off topic: What is the title of the book in your avatar? I have a feeling it will bring some lulz.

Fly4Fun;706606 wrote:A couple of my refining opinions about sports and requirements to be called a sport.

1) If the idea of "hustle" doesn't apply, that activity is precluded from being a sport. If giving it more effort or just trying harder doesn't necessarily give you a slight edge in that moment then no. Is pressing on a gas pedal that much harder hustle? I don't believe so. Does pushing yourself that much more when wrestling another man, trying to outsprint someone to the finish line or sacrificing a bit more for the loose ball equal hustle? Yes.

2) If the activity in question is more about the instruments used than the humans competing in it, then no, it's not a sport. Let's first take a narrow look at racing first. Running and swimming are arguably the two most pure forms of racing as all it really requires is the athlete... especially running. Heck, everyone as a kid had races all the time with siblings or friends running. If you ever went to a pond, lake, ocean or pool you probably also raced swimming. Unprovoked you would do this and have races. Automotive, boat and horse racing is all more about the vehicle than the actual athlete. Sports to me are about athletic achievement with some support from technology. For example, shoes get better, attire becomes lighter. These are improvements, but ultimately the athlete is the key factor. However, in Nascar the key factor is the car. The sport itself doesn't display human athleticism. It's about the car. Now a very borderline sport using this criteria is something like downhill skiing either alpine or nordic, but in that case it's still more about the athlete. Now that was solely about racing sports. Team sports are also traditionally about the athletes, a sport like soccer is probably once again more purely about the athlete as there is very little gear and a simple ball, same with basketball; both of which are clearly sports. Under this prong though Football, Baseball and Hockey become more questionable because they use a lot of equipment or instruments to help the sport. But I think with all those it's still pretty clear the focus is on the athlete and not the instrumentality.

Do having both of these prongs automatically make something a sport? No. But they are requirements in my mind.

Also another key factor I consider: if an in-shape individual is not breaking a sweat after participating in a "round" of it then it is probably not a sport. This doesn't pertain to this discussion but rules out things such as Poker, Billiards, Darts, and Bowling which are most definitely games... and competitive. But not sports for the same reason Monopoly or Video games are not sports.

You cant be serious nancy!!!

There are humans driving the cars. There are humans changing the tires. There are humans setting the cars up for the race each week. They aint remote controlled cars, being navigated around a track!! You act like we are talking about slot car racing.

This probably won't make sense, but I would consider Nascar a "sport" more than I would consider the drivers "athletes".

I think bowling, hunting, golfing and rowing are all sports, but I don't necessarily consider those who participate as athletes.

To me, sport is just a competitive activity.

I am serious.

If non-professional but experience participant in this sport races with a Nascar quality car against Kurt Busch has to use a 1995 used Ford Taurus... who is going to win?

If non-professional but experience participant in this sport races race with the most advanced/stream line swim suit and goggles against Michael Phelps who has to use an old pair of swim trunks and no goggles... who is going to win?

If non-professional but experience participant in this sport races race with the most light and advanced running shoes against Usain Bolt who has to use old sneakers or... who is going to win?

If non-professional but experience participant in this sport races put together a team of friends of same quality with the best football/soccer/basketball equipment against a team of all-star professionals who have to use 20 year old used equipment... who is going to win?

Sorry, but the main source of power/energy in automotive racing, motorboat racing, and horse racing is from the instrument... not the human.

Fly4Fun;706624 wrote:I think you're using a flawed criteria. Take swimming and running for example:

Swimming. There are two types of races: Open Water and traditional swim meets (with lane lines in pools.) In Open Water races you can play defense (using body) to prevent people from passing just like in Nascar. Open water events are longer races such as a five mile swim or something to that regard. Or sometimes open water events are used as part of triathlons... once again, can use your body to "play defense." Where as the shorter races 100, 200, 500, 1000, 1650 Free, 100 and 200 Fly, 100 and 200 Breast, and 100 and 200 Back, are all done in pools. So the length of the race dictates how the event is swum and whether people can use the body, so therefore the length of the race effects whether it is considered a sport?

The exact same thing happens with running. The short events 400M and below people have lanes... they can't use their body to play defense. But the 800 and above they can use their body to play defense. So running is only a sport when it is 800M and above and not 400M and below?

Too me your criteria produces some very perplexing distinctions.

Also, I'd like to point out that this same effect occurs within automotive racing itself.

Edit:

Drag Racing vs. Track Racing. Drag racing is typically the short "sprint" events where people have lanes and Track Racing are the longer events with no lanes and defense.

If anything you should look at all of this and determine that there is a custom within the racing culture that certain shorter events are dependent on lanes to maintain competitive equality while in longer distances the lane distinction isn't as practical and doesn't have as big as an effect on the result.

In your examples, yes, there is a difference that makes one sport and one not. In my mind, which you don't have to agree with. But I consider sport to have a physical aspect in which you can impact your opponent's result. Whatever the length, if I can play against you, not just compare results (in those cases, we could "play" on completely different days - were we really competing against each other?), then it is a sport to me.

Fly4Fun;706654 wrote:I am serious.

If non-professional but experience participant in this sport races with a Nascar quality car against Kurt Busch has to use a 1995 used Ford Taurus... who is going to win?

If non-professional but experience participant in this sport races race with the most advanced/stream line swim suit and goggles against Michael Phelps who has to use an old pair of swim trunks and no goggles... who is going to win?

If non-professional but experience participant in this sport races race with the most light and advanced running shoes against Usain Bolt who has to use old sneakers or... who is going to win?

If non-professional but experience participant in this sport races put together a team of friends of same quality with the best football/soccer/basketball equipment against a team of all-star professionals who have to use 20 year old used equipment... who is going to win?

Sorry, but the main source of power/energy in automotive racing, motorboat racing, and horse racing is from the instrument... not the human.

One bump of my bumper into his, in the middle of the corner, at 170mph,,,,,, And I win.

coyotes22;706664 wrote:One bump of my bumper into his, in the middle of the corner, at 170mph,,,,,, And I win.

You think Kurt Busch is going to get an off the street 1995 used Ford Taurus up to 170MPH? I don't.

My point is that the sport does have a human element... but it's more about getting power and energy from something besides the human participant.

Is boxing a sport? Now assume Hugh Jackman's "Real Steel" movie is realistic. Would you consider that a sport? It's glorified Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots.

Sports are about humans pushing themselves and seeing what the human body can do. Nascar is based more off of non-human instruments than the other examples I talked about.

enigmaax;706658 wrote:In your examples, yes, there is a difference that makes one sport and one not. In my mind, which you don't have to agree with. But I consider sport to have a physical aspect in which you can impact your opponent's result. Whatever the length, if I can play against you, not just compare results (in those cases, we could "play" on completely different days - were we really competing against each other?), then it is a sport to me.

Hmm, ok. I just think that is a really bizarre distinction to make when you take a look at racing in general and determine that the different types customarily employ this system to deal with the differences between short races and long races.

Fly4Fun;706672 wrote:You think Kurt Busch is going to get an off the street 1995 used Ford Taurus up to 170MPH? I don't.

My point is that the sport does have a human element... but it's more about getting power and energy from something besides the human participant.

Is boxing a sport? Now assume Hugh Jackman's "Real Steel" movie is realistic. Would you consider that a sport? It's glorified Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots.

Sports are about humans pushing themselves and seeing what the human body can do. Nascar is based more off of non-human instruments than the other examples I talked about.

You really have no sense of humor do you?

You think what you want, and I will think what I want. That is the point of message boards on the internet. I respect your points, and I am not going to argue with you. This is why I stay away from the political forum.

If its a sport, its one of the dumbest sports there is or ever will be.

I voted that it wasn't a sport. Is horse racing a sport? No, it is not.

Nascar:
Sport – yes.
Athletic – no.

Cheerleading:
Sport – no
Athletic – yes

Darts:
Sport – yes.
Athletic – no.

I believe sport involves clear parameters for scoring based upon completion of criteria. The gray area is judge athletic events such as gymnastics or figure skating, both of which are highly athletic. The exception to this is a judged event in which you can eliminate your opponent, i.e. boxing, mma...

coyotes22;706677 wrote:You really have no sense of humor do you?

You think what you want, and I will think what I want. That is the point of message boards on the internet. I respect your points, and I am not going to argue with you. This is why I stay away from the political forum.

Humor is used to deflect typically. I wanted to cut through it and get to the heart of the issue.

The point of message boards IS to argue. If everyone just stated their opinion and left it at that it'd be a rather dull message board. But I agree that in the end we don't have to agree.

Sonofanump;706679 wrote:Nascar:
Sport – yes.
Athletic – no.

Cheerleading:
Sport – no
Athletic – yes

Darts:
Sport – yes.
Athletic – no.

I believe sport involves clear parameters for scoring based upon completion of criteria. The gray area is judge athletic events such as gymnastics or figure skating, both of which are highly athletic. The exception to this is a judged event in which you can eliminate your opponent, i.e. boxing, mma...

According to this line of reasoning.

Poker:
Sport - Yes
Athletic - No

Monopoly:
Sport - Yes
Athletic - No

FPS (First Person Shooter) Video Games
Sport - Yes
Athletic - No

Nascar aint no damn sport. Neither is swimming for that matter or mexican cock fighting.

Who really cares...... they are doing shit that you and I can't do, bitch and moan all you want and they will sit back and count their millions.

Fly4Fun;706682 wrote:Humor is used to deflect typically.

Have you not read his posts before this thread????