queencitybuckeye;681258 wrote:In some private sector jobs, the product is life and death, and the concept works just fine.

True. So should teachers be compensated like those in the private sector if the prduct is so valuable? life and death?

bonelizzard;681260 wrote:True. So should teachers be compensated like those in the private sector if the prduct is so valuable? life and death?

It isn't life and death. In the likely event that you do a crappy job, there are several ways that a parent can get the child caught up.

bonelizzard;681260 wrote:True. So should teachers be compensated like those in the private sector if the product is so valuable? life and death?

They are compensated. They just get far more compensation in benefits and job security (which I would argue has significant value) than almost any other job.

You still aren't saying why merit pay wouldn't work. You're only saying that it doesn't without providing and objective reasons that it doesn't. Not very convincing.

queencitybuckeye;681265 wrote:It isn't life and death. In the likely event that you do a crappy job, there are several ways that a parent can get the child caught up.

yes, that's a great idea. Home schooling. that's the answer. that way kids won't have to be sent to school at all and the parents are forced to educate their own kids. Great idea. Holding the parents accountable. Now you're talking. That way parents won't drop their kids off at school so the teachers can raise their children.

This has been very interesting for me. Thanks for allowing me to share some of my thoughts on this forum. Albeit a very small one with few people viewing this forum has given me an arena to share some ideas and opinions. I'll be at the State House tomorrow in Cols. along with my fellow other several thousand public employees to voice my opinion on the negative effects of SB5. I value my job, my profession that I chose, because I love kids and doing what I do. Your kids are my product, maybe not life and death, but I feel pretty important indeed. I hope you feel the same. If you have kids, I'm sure you know what I mean. If not, well maybe you'll have kids some day. When you send your kids off to public school, who do you want your kids around for 8 hrs. each day?

Teachers that I know are quality and have some sort of incentive to perform better.

Gblock;681012 wrote:My thing is if there is an underperforming teacher at the school then it is the parents and communities job to complain/point it out.they are pretty easy to spot imo..

What? How is it the Community or Parents' job? Should it not be the administrations role to eliminate bad teachers? You are right about one thing though, it is very easy to spot the bad teachers. Students could tell, parents could tell, etc. But why weren't they fired, why didn't someone do something? The answer lies in the union and how hard it is to fire someone, or they just didn't care.

Back to merit pay, I agree that there should be some form of it, but I don't exactly know how, other than the culmination of peer reviews, other teacher reviews, administrator reviews, etc. The one strong opinion I do have is that it should not be based on test scores. This is based off of my brothers observations in a low class school district where he has to bribe kids just to get them to turn in any form of homework, let alone actually do well on tests. Not only that but these high school students can barely write English. They use the word DAT in writing, it is absurd. Is it a teacher problem, I say no, because they know the word is that, they are just too lazy to actually try. It is in places like that where pay based on grades/scores would not work.

bonelizzard;681232 wrote: Are some teachers bad teachers? Yes. Are some Dr.'s bad Dr.'s. Yes. Are some lawyers bad lawyers. You got it.. Yes. All public schools teachers are evaluated by administrators regulary. If those teachers are found to be doing a bad job, they should be placed on some sort of improvement plan, per negotiated contract.

The difference between the 3 occupations you listed is if a bad doctor or lawyer doesn't perform, they won't survive in their career field. On the other hand bad teachers will still be allowed to teach, per negotiated contract as you have stated.

This needs to be eliminated.

dwccrew;681351 wrote:The difference between the 3 occupations you listed is if a bad doctor or lawyer doesn't perform, they won't survive in their career field. On the other hand bad teachers will still be allowed to teach, per negotiated contract as you have stated.

This needs to be eliminated.

that's why administators evaluate these teachers and put them on a guided plan to help them be better teachers.. per negatiated contract..

sure Dr.'s and lawyers will survive... even the bad ones.. seen their houses? looks like most of them live pretty good to me.. even the bad ones.

bonelizzard;681412 wrote:sure Dr.'s and lawyers will survive... even the bad ones.. seen their houses? looks like most of them live pretty good to me.. even the bad ones.

I've seen teachers, coal miners, steel mill workers and ODOT workers have beautiful/big houses too.
Not sure if that's a good measuring stick lol

Unions work. I think that all of you just wish you were a part of something much bigger than yourselves.. imo
reality.. you really would like to be union members.. just afraid to admit it.. ha

I Wear Pants;681287 wrote:Teachers that I know are quality and have some sort of incentive to perform better.

Ding, ding, fucking ding!

dwccrew;681351 wrote:The difference between the 3 occupations you listed is if a bad doctor or lawyer doesn't perform, they won't survive in their career field. On the other hand bad teachers will still be allowed to teach, per negotiated contract as you have stated.

This needs to be eliminated.

Bingo.

bonelizzard;681412 wrote:that's why administators evaluate these teachers and put them on a guided plan to help them be better teachers.. per negatiated contract..

sure Dr.'s and lawyers will survive... even the bad ones.. seen their houses? looks like most of them live pretty good to me.. even the bad ones.

Hahaha! No. You're now blatantly showing your ignorance. Bad lawyers get disbarred. Bad doctors lose their medical licenses. Seen their houses?

I live next to a former lawyer. He lives in a neighborhood with a significant portion being Section 8 housing, and his house (one of the nicer ones in the neighborhood) is valued at $88,000. He drives a Saturn. He's been working in medical sales for about six years. If he makes $50K a year, I'd be floored.

Sorry, but your perception of the private sector is WAY off.

bonelizzard;681440 wrote:Unions work. I think that all of you just wish you were a part of something much bigger than yourselves.. imo
reality.. you really would like to be union members.. just afraid to admit it.. ha

You know, it's funny you mention that, because my wife was given the choice to join a union ... and chose not to, because she believes what I've been saying this whole time.

I'd refuse to be in a union as well. I prefer to be part of the solution.

I personally think many teachers support the power of current unions because they know that if the unions lost power, they'd have to work harder at their jobs to (a) keep it, and (b) even sniff anything like a pay increase. They wouldn't have all the comfy perks they get, out-of-this-world benefits, and they would be forced to push themselves to get better and better as years went on.

Either way, the kids are the ones suffering right now. Middle and high school students that can't read? Can't do long division? Can't parse a sentence? Don't know on what date the Declaration of Independence was signed? Don't know how to write in cursive? Don't know what photosynthesis is? I see this every day, in dozens of kids ...

... kids who are all taught by union-protected teachers who don't make any sort of effort to teach the kids.

What's cursive?

And speaking of photosynthesis....
[video=youtube;rrpsLQOW1KE][/video]

Quality is terrible but only clip of it I could find.

I Wear Pants;681505 wrote:What's cursive?

I chuckled, but it sucks, because children NOW are asking that.

I Wear Pants;681505 wrote:And speaking of photosynthesis....
[video=youtube;rrpsLQOW1KE][/video]

Quality is terrible but only clip of it I could find.

Seriously, next time you come across a kid who is about 13 years old, ask them to explain photosynthesis. In most cases, you'll get something no better than, "Isn't that something with plants and the air?"

I Wear Pants;681505 wrote:What's cursive?

Is this what you mean?

http://www.onlineschools.org/education-debate/the-end-of-cursive-handwriting-in-georgia/

FatHobbit;681551 wrote:Is this what you mean?

http://www.onlineschools.org/education-debate/the-end-of-cursive-handwriting-in-georgia/

Nothing wrong with learning cursive, but through 1-5 grades probably at least a fifth of our time was spent on writing - a colossal WASTE of time. I write cursive on two occasions - to sign documents (which isn't really cursive) and to write checks - all ten or so I do a year. Even in holiday/childbirth/etc. correspondence, few people use cursive - it's faster for most to print and you don't have to worry about the reader not understanding you. We might as well teach bookbinding, typesetting and other defunct skills.

I'm not suggesting dedicating time learning to DO it, but let's at least know what it IS.

bonelizzard;681412 wrote:that's why administators evaluate these teachers and put them on a guided plan to help them be better teachers.. per negatiated contract..

sure Dr.'s and lawyers will survive... even the bad ones.. seen their houses? looks like most of them live pretty good to me.. even the bad ones.

Doctors and lawyers will survive because you say so? Not very compelling evidence.

O-Trap;681490 wrote: Either way, the kids are the ones suffering right now. Middle and high school students that can't read? Can't do long division? Can't parse a sentence? Don't know on what date the Declaration of Independence was signed? Don't know how to write in cursive? Don't know what photosynthesis is? I see this every day, in dozens of kids ...

... kids who are all taught by union-protected teachers who don't make any sort of effort to teach the kids.

Look at the post I quoted above yours, therein lies the answer. Bonelizzard claims to be a teacher but writes like a high school dropout. Most of his/her posts have been that way.

Manhattan Buckeye;681555 wrote:Nothing wrong with learning cursive, but through 1-5 grades probably at least a fifth of our time was spent on writing - a colossal WASTE of time. I write cursive on two occasions - to sign documents (which isn't really cursive) and to write checks - all ten or so I do a year. Even in holiday/childbirth/etc. correspondence, few people use cursive - it's faster for most to print and you don't have to worry about the reader not understanding you. We might as well teach bookbinding, typesetting and other defunct skills.

Lol, that's the only time I use cursive as well. I thought it was odd that article said kids couldn't read cursive. Really? Do you have to learn how to read it? Maybe I did, but it seems like you can make it out without too much work.

our district doesn't teach cursive anymore...they barely get 1 sememster of typing.

need more parents like this

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/hillsborough/bad-grades-land-teen-on-street-corner-02162011

dwccrew;681569 wrote: Look at the post I quoted above yours, therein lies the answer. Bonelizzard claims to be a teacher but writes like a high school dropout. Most of his/her posts have been that way.

You guys kill me... I looked for somewhere to express my political views and get some opinions and feedback from others. Well, I spent 1 day on this forum and have been insulted by all of you "intelligent" people. It really is humorous to me to know that there are people that do nothing but hide behind their computer screens, insult others and claim to know everything.... I have been called unprofessional because I am in a union. I have been called a High school drop out even though I have a Master's degree plus 30 odd hours. There's a reason that at best there is only 7 people viewing this forum on an average.. I hope that you guys can boost your post count so that you can get your post #'s high.

Thanks for shedding some light to me as to how the professional internet political posters feel. I know you don't represent everyone, but it really is humorous to me.

Well, I'm off to take a stand. Going to the state house today and voicing my opinion against SB5.
Public employee unions are not the problem. Collective bargaining works. The future of public education here in Ohio will drastically change if this bill passes. If you have kids and are sending them to public schools and want public education to continue to improve see that SB5 is declined and doesn't pass. Call your senator today and express your negative views on SB5 and the negative effects it will have.

bonelizzard;681654 wrote:You guys kill me... I looked for somewhere to express my political views and get some opinions and feedback from others. Well, I spent 1 day on this forum and have been insulted by all of you "intelligent" people. It really is humorous to me to know that there are people that do nothing but hide behind their computer screens, insult others and claim to know everything.... I have been called unprofessional because I am in a union. I have been called a High school drop out even though I have a Master's degree plus 30 odd hours. There's a reason that at best there is only 7 people viewing this forum on an average.. I hope that you guys can boost your post count so that you can get your post #'s high.

Thanks for shedding some light to me as to how the professional internet political posters feel. I know you don't represent everyone, but it really is humorous to me.

Well, I'm off to take a stand. Going to the state house today and voicing my opinion against SB5.
Public employee unions are not the problem. Collective bargaining works. The future of public education here in Ohio will drastically change if this bill passes. If you have kids and are sending them to public schools and want public education to continue to improve see that SB5 is declined and doesn't pass. Call your senator today and express your negative views on SB5 and the negative effects it will have.

Where did I berate or insult you?

I'm merely here to discuss issues, without anyone flying into a tizzy.

I cannot understand why someone thinking that non-union schools would be so detrimental, when none of the problems claimed exist in any other non-union industry, and when every test done seems to show drastic improvement among non-union-influenced schools. FFT did post one such example, and it appeared to get lost in the shuffle, because it was never addressed. Why?

I'm trying to wrap my mind around how someone could still see unions as good, productive things, let alone vital to the welfare of the education system. However, thus far, your reasons have been errant, and have sounded terribly propagandistic, with no substance or reasoning or studies to back them up. I suppose that's all I'm really looking for: a logical, reasonable, or researched basis for holding such a strong view that unions are, in any way, relevant and beneficial today.

bonelizzard;681654 wrote:You guys kill me... I looked for somewhere to express my political views and get some opinions and feedback from others. Well, I spent 1 day on this forum and have been insulted by all of you "intelligent" people. It really is humorous to me to know that there are people that do nothing but hide behind their computer screens, insult others and claim to know everything.... I have been called unprofessional because I am in a union. I have been called a High school drop out even though I have a Master's degree plus 30 odd hours. There's a reason that at best there is only 7 people viewing this forum on an average.. I hope that you guys can boost your post count so that you can get your post #'s high.

Thanks for shedding some light to me as to how the professional internet political posters feel. I know you don't represent everyone, but it really is humorous to me.

Well, I'm off to take a stand. Going to the state house today and voicing my opinion against SB5.
Public employee unions are not the problem. Collective bargaining works. The future of public education here in Ohio will drastically change if this bill passes. If you have kids and are sending them to public schools and want public education to continue to improve see that SB5 is declined and doesn't pass. Call your senator today and express your negative views on SB5 and the negative effects it will have.

Other than the dwccrew shot, which was a little low, the dialogue on this thread has been fine. I'm not sure why you are complaining.

Had an interesting discussion about SB5 in my Masters class last night. Masters class is "Intro to Admin." Getting it in Educational Administration. There are some definite positives to the bill, but it will be VERY interesting if it passes, to say the least.

Here are points where I agree with the dissension:

- I think bad teachers need to be OUT! There needs to be an easier, cheaper way to get rid of them. Costs districts too much money to get rid of a bad, tenured teacher. What most people don't understand, however, is that the party at fault is the administration. If there is a terrible teacher in the district, it is the administration's fault for 1) giving them tenure, 2) Not giving them poor evaluations, 3) Hiring them, 4) not helping them.

- Merit pay sounds like a good idea, but every teacher needs to be treated equally. Science is no better than economics is no better than SPED is no better than Phys. Ed. (However, EVERYONE is better than CCRUNNER609! )