ernest_t_bass;681684 wrote:What most people don't understand, however, is that the party at fault is the administration. If there is a terrible teacher in the district, it is the administration's fault for 1) giving them tenure, 2) Not giving them poor evaluations, 3) Hiring them, 4) not helping them.

I agree with that.

ernest_t_bass;681684 wrote:- Merit pay sounds like a good idea, but every teacher needs to be treated equally. Science is no better than economics is no better than SPED is no better than Phys. Ed. (However, EVERYONE is better than CCRUNNER609! )

Why should every teacher be treated equally? Aren't some subjects more difficult to teach? I would imagine there is a different demand for different teachers as well. I do think some people here put more weight on math and science than they deserve. Mainly because I would prefer kids get a well rounded education. Math and science are important, but I don't think language and arts should be forgotten. But I do believe some subjects are more difficult to teach and those teachers should be rewarded for that.

ernest_t_bass;681684 wrote:...

- Merit pay sounds like a good idea, but every teacher needs to be treated equally. Science is no better than economics is no better than SPED is no better than Phys. Ed. (However, EVERYONE is better than CCRUNNER609! )

Treated equally shouldn't mean paid equally. If collective bargaining ceases to exist I would hope there's a greater recognized value in the skill set of an AP Physics teacher with a PhD than a Physical Education teacher with a Master's degree.

FatHobbit;681698 wrote:Why should every teacher be treated equally? Aren't some subjects more difficult to teach?

If we base it on "ease of teaching," who would want to be a Kindergarden teacher? SPED?

ernest_t_bass;681702 wrote:If we base it on "ease of teaching," who would want to be a Kindergarden teacher? SPED?

Does a Kindergarten teacher currently get paid the same as a high school teacher?

FatHobbit;681723 wrote:Does a Kindergarten teacher currently get paid the same as a high school teacher?

Yes. All on the same negotiated scale.

I have no major beefs with SB5. One reason I hate to see our Union get trampled and lose some of it's clought is because dealing with kids and how our world is now guilty when it hits the internet or news society means I am at the mercy of teenagers! LOL

Here is why I say that. My first year I was hired I was asked to cover a coworkers high school gym class. A student A had just returned to school from serving at JDC. Student A when class starts I am getting the activity organized and student A go right after student B who they had problems with before leaving. I look back and the fist are flying! I start hollering and running to break them up. I get in between and get them seperated. Student B starts walking off as I had instructed to the wall. Student A wouldnt stop trying to get by me, dropping the F bomb at student B and me. I told them to back off and get to the other wall. Student A then tried to run by me to get to student B. I stepped in front and they started grabbing my arms and clawing at my neck and back to get by. I then yelled at student A to stop and the didnt. I grabbed student A around the shoulders from behind to restrain them.

Students were still coming out of the locker room and there were only 8 or so students in gym when this happened. No cameras either. The next day I was called into the Principals office to DEFEND myself against allegations from student A and parents that I choked and assaulted them. I walked out of the meeting and found my union rep. Went back in. Principal investigated, and lucky for me the other students backed my story.

We deal with kids, and in todays world parents and children hold all of the cards. I dont mind merit pay, I think I do a pretty good job. But if our union gets demolished, situations like above could end a career. IMO of course!~

FatHobbit;681723 wrote:Does a Kindergarten teacher currently get paid the same as a high school teacher?

Yes. All on the same negotiated scale.

FWIW, I don't really know how to write in cursive, but that doesn't seem to be a huge hurdle in life. I can sign my name, which is about the only time I need it. I can't believe we spent so many years learning (or in my case, not learning) such a useless skill.

bonelizzard;681412 wrote:sure Dr.'s and lawyers will survive... even the bad ones.. seen their houses? looks like most of them live pretty good to me.. even the bad ones.

The typical lawyer coming out of school (3 years after a teacher comes out of school) will have something on the order of $125,000 in student loans and earning a $40-50,000 salary. Once you account for the opportunity costs of the three years of school, it's very clear that the median starting teacher is in better shape than the median starting lawyer. This is why I don't think the supply of lawyers would go down if their salaries are cut--there's already a massive misunderstanding of the idea of how much money they make, so taking it from being a terrible dollars/cents choice to an absolutely horrible one isn't likely to make an impact because no one realizes it anyway.

ernest_t_bass;681684 wrote:Had an interesting discussion about SB5 in my Masters class last night. Masters class is "Intro to Admin." Getting it in Educational Administration. There are some definite positives to the bill, but it will be VERY interesting if it passes, to say the least.

Here are points where I agree with the dissension:

- I think bad teachers need to be OUT! There needs to be an easier, cheaper way to get rid of them. Costs districts too much money to get rid of a bad, tenured teacher. What most people don't understand, however, is that the party at fault is the administration. If there is a terrible teacher in the district, it is the administration's fault for 1) giving them tenure, 2) Not giving them poor evaluations, 3) Hiring them, 4) not helping them.

I agree. So there needs to be incentive to oust them or dock their pay (frees up money to go after better teachers, which will have positive effects on the kids, results, and ultimately, it will reflect well on the administration).

ernest_t_bass;681684 wrote:- Merit pay sounds like a good idea, but every teacher needs to be treated equally. Science is no better than economics is no better than SPED is no better than Phys. Ed. (However, EVERYONE is better than CCRUNNER609! )

I agree. A well-rounded education is part of what pre-university education is SUPPOSED to be.

fan_from_texas;681744 wrote:... This is why I don't think the supply of lawyers would go down if their salaries are cut--there's already a massive misunderstanding of the idea of how much money they make, so taking it from being a terrible dollars/cents choice to an absolutely horrible one isn't likely to make an impact because no one realizes it anyway.

Lol. I don't know why but this really made me laugh!

Con_Alma;681758 wrote:Lol. I don't know why but this really made me laugh!

I chuckled as well.

bonelizzard;681654 wrote: I have been called a High school drop out even though I have a Master's degree plus 30 odd hours.

I never called you a high school dropout, I said you write like a high school dropout. Apparently reading comprehension is questionable as well.

ptown_trojans_1;681678 wrote:Other than the dwccrew shot, which was a little low, the dialogue on this thread has been fine. I'm not sure why you are complaining.

How was it a lowshot? I made an observation based on what I perceived to be poorly written posts; I never directly stated that lizzard was a high school dropout or lacked intelligence.

^^ You should have replied in a more moderate and democratic manner

ernest_t_bass;681728 wrote:Yes. All on the same negotiated scale.

I can also confirm this. In both of my father's two districts and my brother's lone district, there is no separation in the payscale in terms of subject matter or grade level (aside from extra-curricular work which tends to be more available in the higher aged classes). Again, the elementary gym teacher in charge of watching kids run around gets paid exactly the same as the teacher who has the knowledge to teach AP calculus.

It doesn't make sense.

Manhattan Buckeye;683573 wrote:It doesn't make sense.

Because you don't understand the value of each, compared to each other. The fact that you view the element. Phys Ed teacher as a baby sitter shows both your insensitivity to the importance of a solid K-12 curriculum and your lack of understanding of the importance of each subject.

ernest_t_bass;683649 wrote:Because you don't understand the value of each, compared to each other. The fact that you view the element. Phys Ed teacher as a baby sitter shows both your insensitivity to the importance of a solid K-12 curriculum and your lack of understanding of the importance of each subject.

I understand the value of each, and I understand one is far more important than the other. I know that the pediatrician provides a valuable service, but it doesn't require the skills that a heart surgeon requires. Their compensation is received accordingly - just like practically all professions.

If I'm insensitive, tough shit. I'm being honest. This is why teachers and their unions seem so out of touch. I can't think of another "profession" where disparate skills with disparate aptitudes are treated so similarly - even in the education industry. Do you think that the medical school professor at OSU gets paid the same as the Leisure Studies professor? Of course not. Why is this the case at the K-12 level?

ETB, you seem like a pretty smart guy, instead of throwing out accusations of lack of understanding or insensitivity, why don't you EXPLAIN why K-12 operates on a different system than all other professions? Explain why we're not understanding or are being insensitive.

ernest_t_bass;683649 wrote:Because you don't understand the value of each, compared to each other. The fact that you view the element. Phys Ed teacher as a baby sitter shows both your insensitivity to the importance of a solid K-12 curriculum and your lack of understanding of the importance of each subject.

Say what? Gym teachers in each grades are nothing but glorified baby sitters. What does a high school gym teacher do? Mine was fat, sat reading a newspaper, while the athletic kids destroyed the unathletic kids at kickball and basketball. He probably made more than 60k a year to do NOTHING. Get off your "teachers are preparing kids for the World and are of the utmost importance" horse and realize that SOME of them are not even close to worth what they make.

ccrunner609;683674 wrote:The best teacher in the world isnt going to look good in that situation. MERIT PAY ISNT GOING TO BE FAIR AND EQUAL. What we will get is that room at the end of the hall for the "special kids" again. Social promotion will have to stop. If you cannot keep up in math and reading you will have to stay, it wont be fair that the next grade level teachers will lose their merit pay because kids get passed along.

Did you bother reading the posts in this thread? We suggested a number of ways to address these sorts of problems.

fan_from_texas;683675 wrote:Did you bother reading the posts in this thread? We suggested a number of ways to address these sorts of problems.

A fair point, but I can understand CCRunner's POV, because it is the same as my father's. The union doesn't like change (hence, my "small c conservative" comment) and places a high priority on job security and protection - an understandable POV. But if we're serious about getting the U.S. education system to where it can potentially be, we do need to provide suggestions for improvement and the unions should listen to them.

To CCRunner's point about how merit pay works for some disciplines - it is a fair point, so we should address it.

If you want to be an elementary PE teacher, you might have to agree to a lower ceiling with your comp, but on the other hand there are ways to make the position more attractive. Perhaps no need for a 4 year degree, and that a 2-year degree would suffice. On the other hand if you want to be on the top portion of the pay scale in disciplines like higher math/science and foreign languages the pay scale can be higher, but more expectations would be in order. Perhaps 9-12 math teachers would need engineering level professional examination math requirements and foreign language teachers would need to spend some time in a native speaking country. Different skills = different expectations = different compensation.

ccrunner609;683680 wrote:... you cant post anything that will make me feel differently.

Manhattan Buckeye;683684 wrote:If you want to be an elementary PE teacher, you might have to agree to a lower ceiling with your comp, but on the other hand there are ways to make the position more attractive. Perhaps no need for a 4 year degree, and that a 2-year degree would suffice. On the other hand if you want to be on the top portion of the pay scale in disciplines like higher math/science and foreign languages the pay scale can be higher, but more expectations would be in order. Perhaps 9-12 math teachers would need engineering level professional examination math requirements and foreign language teachers would need to spend some time in a native speaking country. Different skills = different expectations = different compensation.

Don't waste your time. He just said that nothing ... not even logical solutions ... will change his mind.

This is what public employees with their cushy, secure paychecks and benefits don't understand because they aren't out in the real world. There aren't people out there turning down jobs (well, except the people living comfortably on government money). If word got out that there aren't enough teachers, you would have plenty of applicants to choose the best and brightest from to fill those jobs.

You can go teach in an urban district without a teaching degree. There are special programs. I don't see too many people lining up for those.

Not really that simple when you are talking about relying on the behavior of completely unpredictable children as the basis of judgement. It isn't like producing widgets. People who work in education or any other field where the idea is to try to change human behavior don't know what is going to walk in the dorr Monday morning.

ernest_t_bass;683753 wrote:You can go teach in an urban district without a teaching degree. There are special programs. I don't see too many people lining up for those.

Is this actually true? What are the qualifications that you DO need?

I live in an "urban" district, and if I currently have the qualifications to do even a little bit to fix the problem, I'm looking into it.