Bigdogg;943746 wrote:You obviously know nothing about nurses. My wife is a surgical manager at at hospital. She has worked in a union and non union settings. By far the patient care is better in the union settings. Just one more example of you giving an uninformed opinion absent of facts. What about Kasich sitting there straight up fabricating lies?

I love how you can just sit at your computer and tell lies -- hoping nobody knows any better.

First of all, the number of union nurses working in Ohio is minuscule compared to those who are not union, so the effect of unionization on quality of care is minimal, to say the least.

Second and most importantly: the quality of care, staffing levels, how meds are handled, safety protocols, and just about every other facet of care given by nurses in Ohio is regulated by the state. Union or no union has no bearing on any of this stuff. The rules governing care are established through licensure and Medicare/Medicaid certification (inspections usually done by state personnel) of whatever type of facility the nurse is working in, be it a hospital, nursing home, or assisted living facility.

The notion that SB 5 has much of any effect on quality of care provided by nurses is simply laughable, and IS a lie being perpetuated by those in favor of repealing the law. Politifact examined that particular ad and found it to be mostly not true; and I've given you a lot of other reasons why it doesn't even have a role in 99 percent of nursing care provided in this state.

Also, Kasich did reconsider and offer a sitdown -- at which time the unions had decided to go forward with the vote and make their power play, whether it was the best thing for their workers or the state as a whole.

I really believe it could have been handled better by both sides, but in the initial days of the Kasich administration, it was imperative that they get a hold of the runaway budget, some of which is caused by unsustainable public employee contracts. Worse , however, was the rejection of a sitdown when the Governor reconsidered, because it shows the true colors of the SB5 opponents. They could have saved the state and its electorate this divisive election and the millions of dollars that will be spent villifying the other side. Winning only gets them back at the table that was offered by the governor anyway.

Bigdogg;943746 wrote:You obviously know nothing about nurses. My wife is a surgical manager at at hospital. She has worked in a union and non union settings. By far the patient care is better in the union settings. Just one more example of you giving an uninformed opinion absent of facts.

You call someone out for giving their "opinion absent of facts" yet you make your own unsubstantiated opinion that patient care is better in a union shop vs. a non-union setting and you expect everyone to buy off on it? LMAO

jmog;943780 wrote:Not totally separate to be honest.

If it is ok for firing to be based on "merit" then why not layoffs based on "merit"?

I'm sorry, but if my school district has to layoff some teachers due to budget deficits I would rather them be able to keep the "best" teachers and layoff those that are not as good.

So you are still wrong.

those best teachers would also be the highest paid in a merit system. laying off the lowest paid teacher isnt going to save you any money unless you layoff many more teachers cutting down on the effectiveness of the teachers left.

jmog;943780 wrote:Not totally separate to be honest.

If it is ok for firing to be based on "merit" then why not layoffs based on "merit"?

I'm sorry, but if my school district has to layoff some teachers due to budget deficits I would rather them be able to keep the "best" teachers and layoff those that are not as good.

So you are still wrong.

Symantics.

You are lumping layoffs caused by budget deficits and firing for cause into one bucket. They cannot be lumped together because one is governed by a mutually negotiated and agreed upon contract between the union and the elected school board and the other is not.

If you would rather layoff the 'not as good' teachers in the face of a budget deficit, come up with a way to determine who is best and who is not, run for school board, get elected and get your plan implemented

queencitybuckeye;935895 wrote:Better said, if nearly everyone in the private sector has taken a hit in this economy, there's no logical reason the public sector should not "pay" their share.

http://www2.ohiovotes2011.com/news/2011/oct/18/7/ohio-safety-forces-study-shows-union-concessions-ar-791996/

The public sector has been taking hits.

queencitybuckeye;943771 wrote:Cite? Not taking her word, she can't do any better than you.

28 years of working in hospitals as a nurse. Nursing department supernvisor and not in a union. What is your experence?

Bigdogg;944859 wrote:28 years of working in hospitals as a nurse. Nureing department supervisor and not in a union. What is your experence?

Nurses I know with comparable or more experience who say the polar opposite.

Glory Days;944548 wrote:those best teachers would also be the highest paid in a merit system. laying off the lowest paid teacher isnt going to save you any money unless you layoff many more teachers cutting down on the effectiveness of the teachers left.

Oh no, life will end as we know it...

Oh wait, they already lay off the lowest paid teachers...come on Glory you can do better than that.

In the current system they lay off the teachers with the lowest tenure, and the lowest paid also are the lowest tenure.

You can do better than that BS argument.

wkfan;944570 wrote:Symantics.

You are lumping layoffs caused by budget deficits and firing for cause into one bucket. They cannot be lumped together because one is governed by a mutually negotiated and agreed upon contract between the union and the elected school board and the other is not.

If you would rather layoff the 'not as good' teachers in the face of a budget deficit, come up with a way to determine who is best and who is not, run for school board, get elected and get your plan implemented

As I have said numerous times, I am not a school board super member or a school principal, so it is not my job to come up with how the merit system for a given school district is to be done.

Just like it is not the school board members job to determine how my company should do merit based pay.

That's a straw man argument and you know it, it holds ZERO merit (pun intended).

jmog;944878 wrote:As I have said numerous times, I am not a school board super member or a school principal, so it is not my job to come up with how the merit system for a given school district is to be done.

Just like it is not the school board members job to determine how my company should do merit based pay.

That's a straw man argument and you know it, it holds ZERO merit (pun intended).

I believe that it HAS merit.

I dislike people who continually bitch about things and refuse to offer any constructive ideas or, better yet, roll up their sleeves and do the work themselves rather than sit back and ask others to do their bidding for them.

wkfan;944888 wrote:I dislike people who continually bitch about things and refuse to offer any constructive ideas

Why did that cause a picture of the typical union member to pop into my head ..

QuakerOats;944902 wrote:Why did that cause a picture of the typical union member to pop into my head ..

Because of the absence of your own original thoughts, there is plenty of room to fill the void.

"talking points that you believe in"

QuakerOats;944902 wrote:Why did that cause a picture of the typical union member to pop into my head ..

Interesting....not currently a union person and never have been. You are as wrong about that statement as he was about being fired and being layed off being the same thing.

I choose to volunteer in my community (schools, school district, athletics, church, neighborhood civic association, etc) because it is the right thing to do and I enjoy serving. I would rather those who do not choose to serve just sit quietly and let those of us who are actually doing the work...work. Kind of reminds me of the Col. Jessup speech in 'A Few Good Men'....

jmog;944874 wrote:Oh no, life will end as we know it...

Oh wait, they already lay off the lowest paid teachers...come on Glory you can do better than that.

In the current system they lay off the teachers with the lowest tenure, and the lowest paid also are the lowest tenure.

You can do better than that BS argument.

you completely missed the point.

jmog;944878 wrote:As I have said numerous times, I am not a school board super member or a school principal, so it is not my job to come up with how the merit system for a given school district is to be done.

of course its not your job to come up with the system, but you are going to vote on that system you have no knowledge of?

Glory Days;944983 wrote:of course its not your job to come up with the system, but you are going to vote on that system you have no knowledge of?

BS. Any merit system set up IF this becomes law will almost certainly be done by teachers for teachers, and it will also very likely be done at a local level vs. having one statewide system. He may be voting to have the structure changed, but he isn't voting on the specific system. You know better than to try and pass off garbage like this as fact.

Now if you want to whine because he's voting to take away the "you get pay increases because you can breathe and make it to the school each day" methodology now used pretty much statewide...that would be accurate.

Kasuck is not doing shit, this Issue is going down BIG!

Glory Days;944973 wrote:you completely missed the point.

As do you, apparently. States are in debt into the trillions, with unfunded pensions being a large part of it, and yet you do not support even the most basic of reforms to simply start getting control of the factors driving this massive debt that will cripple the next generations, irreparably. Stunning.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45019599

jc10380;945032 wrote:Kasuck is not doing ****, this Issue is going down BIG!

What ...... are you on a smoking break from community organizing class or something?

jc10380;945032 wrote:Kasuck is not doing ****, this Issue is going down BIG!

Cool story, bro, but you shouldn't skip class just to post on an Internet forum. :rolleyes:

i actually got a copy of the matrix that ode wants to use...its much ado about nothing...not much will change just more goal setting and feedback and you get evaluated every year instead of every other. it will be going in place with or without sb5/issue2 in my district

QuakerOats;945033 wrote:As do you, apparently. States are in debt into the trillions, with unfunded pensions being a large part of it, and yet you do not support even the most basic of reforms to simply start getting control of the factors driving this massive debt that will cripple the next generations, irreparably. Stunning.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45019599

even the creators of SB5 dont guarantee it will help the debt.

[h=6]HELP MITT ROMNEY DECIDE: SHOULD SENATE BILL 5 BE THE LAW OF THE LAND IN OHIO? http://t.co/Mqv33TDp[/h]

Gblock;945098 wrote:i actually got a copy of the matrix that ode wants to use...its much ado about nothing...not much will change just more goal setting and feedback and you get evaluated every year instead of every other. it will be going in place with or without sb5/issue2 in my district

If we could get something merit based implemented in schools and every job besides firefighter/medics and outlaw striking, I would be ok with SB5 failing