LJ;945421 wrote:If we could get something merit based implemented in schools and every job besides firefighter/medics and outlaw striking, I would be ok with SB5 failing

Not just schools, but for all state employees as well. That's more than 60,000 folks who should be judged on merit and not simply given pay increases because another year has gone by.

Writerbuckeye;945453 wrote:Not just schools, but for all state employees as well. That's more than 60,000 folks who should be judged on merit and not simply given pay increases because another year has gone by.

That's the, you know, "and every job besides firefighter/medics" part

LJ;945458 wrote:That's the, you know, "and every job besides firefighter/medics" part

Just curious why you think merit pay won't work for medics and firemen, too?

Writerbuckeye;945534 wrote:Just curious why you think merit pay won't work for medics and firemen, too?

Nothing to judge them on besides attendence. They are judged to be competent before being hired. You either can or you cant in those jobs.

LJ;945536 wrote:Nothing to judge them on besides attendence. They are judged to be competent before being hired. You either can or you cant in those jobs.

What makes you think all unions are against merit pay? There are many unions that have adopted this allready.

Bigdogg;945541 wrote:What makes you think all unions are against merit pay? There are many unions that have adopted this allready.

Where did I say that?

LJ;945554 wrote:Where did I say that?

So what are you saying then? There are lots of unions that work very effectly with management on merit pay. You agree then?

Bigdogg;945564 wrote:So what are you saying than? There are lots of unions that work very effectly with management on merit pay. You agree then?

Well, w what you quoted, I was agreeing that merit pay doesnt work with those two groups.

LJ;945567 wrote:Well, w what you quoted, I was agreeing that merit pay doesnt work with those two groups.

My personal opinion is that step pay is an out dated system and a merit based system should be for everyone. See we can agree on some things.

LJ;945536 wrote:Nothing to judge them on besides attendence. They are judged to be competent before being hired. You either can or you cant in those jobs.

Not true. There are good firemen/medics and bad ones, just like any other job. In fact, most FF jobs you don't have to show any competence or have any training in the field to get in. Test well on the civil service test and interview well is all you need.

And there is plenty to judge on.

WebFire;945704 wrote:Not true. There are good firemen/medics and bad ones, just like any other job. In fact, most FF jobs you don't have to show any competence or have any training in the field to get in. Test well on the civil service test and interview well is all you need.

Patently false. You need to be in the top on your physical and competency exams to get an interview to begin with. Not to mention you have to be certified already. We are talking about fire depts where people are fulltime, not volunteer depts.

And there is plenty to judge on.

Let's hear it

On the note of having to pass the physical, I have a friend who is a pretty high level athlete and he didn't test top 30 for Marion City or Mt Vernon FD.

wkfan;944936 wrote:Interesting....not currently a union person and never have been. You are as wrong about that statement as he was about being fired and being layed off being the same thing.

I choose to volunteer in my community (schools, school district, athletics, church, neighborhood civic association, etc) because it is the right thing to do and I enjoy serving. I would rather those who do not choose to serve just sit quietly and let those of us who are actually doing the work...work. Kind of reminds me of the Col. Jessup speech in 'A Few Good Men'....

You know nothing about me. I teach Sunday school, serve on volunteer board, coach baseball and wrestling for youth, etc.

However, there are people who went to college for the sole purpose of being school administrators so I am sorry but part of their job should be to appraise teachers just like an engineering manager appraises engineers. Part of that is coming up with how to do it.

Glory Days;944973 wrote:you completely missed the point.

Completely debunking your point is not the same as missing the point.

Glory Days;944983 wrote:of course its not your job to come up with the system, but you are going to vote on that system you have no knowledge of?

Not my job to come up with how merit pay would work. But my job as a citizen to vote out a system that on its face is a complete conflict of interest and is set up to keep/reward people for being around the longest instead of those that are good at what they do.

jmog;945764 wrote:You know nothing about me. I teach Sunday school, serve on volunteer board, coach baseball and wrestling for youth, etc.

However, there are people who went to college for the sole purpose of being school administrators so I am sorry but part of their job should be to appraise teachers just like an engineering manager appraises engineers. Part of that is coming up with how to do it.

Please help me understand how this response correlates to your failed attemp to lump being able to fire an incompetent teacher with the terms and conditions of the CBA relating to the process for laying off teachers in times of declining enrollment (i.e 'lack of work') or economic conditions (i.e. 'lack of funds').

That is what our debate is about.

LJ;945710 wrote:Patently false. You need to be in the top on your physical and competency exams to get an interview to begin with. Not to mention you have to be certified already. We are talking about fire depts where people are fulltime, not volunteer depts.


Let's hear it

All false. You do not need to be certified in anything. That's not to say some departments require it, but many do not. You have to pass a physical, but not one that tests physical shape.

Remember, there are more fire departments than just your towns'. I know these things from FACT...as I actually took a few city tests when I was around 29-30. Unfortunately, in Ohio you cannot be hired past 31 (though a city can overwrite this in local law, but few do), and I ran out of time.

wkfan;945776 wrote:Please help me understand how this response correlates to your failed attemp to lump being able to fire an incompetent teacher with the terms and conditions of the CBA relating to the process for laying off teachers in times of declining enrollment (i.e 'lack of work') or economic conditions (i.e. 'lack of funds').

That is what our debate is about.

Look at the post I quoted and it is quite clear, not that hard to figure out.

LJ;945536 wrote:Nothing to judge them on besides attendence. They are judged to be competent before being hired. You either can or you cant in those jobs.

1. Fireground competency
2. Leadership
3. Do just what is required to get the paycheck, or working hard
4. Additional training
5. No different than any other job

Go into a firehouse and the FFs there can tell you which ones are good and which ones are bad. Examples:

Firefighter A shows up for his shift at 6:59am...just in time for roll call. He does the morning chores and then watches soaps and talk shows the rest of the day. When they do have a call, he gives the minimum effort, and often time shows ineptitude on the fireground. He is unsure of the proper tactics, unfamiliar with the equipment, etc.

Firefighter B shows up for his shift at 6:30am, so he can get settled in and chat with the previous shift members before roll call. He gets his morning chores done, then spends the afternoon working on that overgrowing to-do list around the station. He fixes that broken airpack on Engine 115 that most seem to ignore. He fixes the leaking drinking fountain in the apparatus bay. On calls, he clearly shows good leadership and helps teach the younger firefighters the ropes (while FF A is sitting on the bumper of the engine). He is sharp as tack when it comes to fireground operations, and many times he is sought out for his advice. In the evening, during his downtime, he has book in his hand, or watching a video, learning some new techniques in search and rescue.

Both are regular fireman, not officers. Which one would you pick to be on your crew? Which one deserves more pay?

WebFire;945782 wrote:All false. You do not need to be certified in anything. That's not to say some departments require it, but many do not. You have to pass a physical, but not one that tests physical shape.

Remember, there are more fire departments than just your towns'. I know these things from FACT...as I actually took a few city tests when I was around 29-30. Unfortunately, in Ohio you cannot be hired past 31 (though a city can overwrite this in local law, but few do), and I ran out of time.

There hasn't been a dept hiring within about 1 hour of Columbus in the past few years that does not follow what I just said. My family has a lot of FF, as well as having a bunch of friends that are FF and all have applied for just about every opening in the past few years.

Maybe it's different from when you were applying, since you said you ran out of time. Everywhere around here requires certification, a physical test, a competency test and an interview.

jmog;945784 wrote:Look at the post I quoted and it is quite clear, not that hard to figure out.

I give up.

You can't cure stupid.

LJ;945792 wrote:There hasn't been a dept hiring within about 1 hour of Columbus in the past few years that does not follow what I just said. My family has a lot of FF, as well as having a bunch of friends that are FF and all have applied for just about every opening in the past few years.

Maybe it's different from when you were applying, since you said you ran out of time. Everywhere around here requires certification, a physical test, a competency test and an interview.

And that's good for those departments. But many, and I would say most, do not require prior certifications. Most probably do some kind of "fitness" test in the hiring process, but that would be it. You'd laugh at the physical fitness in most departments.

WebFire;945797 wrote:And that's good for those departments. But many, and I would say most, do not require prior certifications. Most probably do some kind of "fitness" test in the hiring process, but that would be it. You'd laugh at the physical fitness in most departments.

Lancaster, Harlem, Sunbury, Delaware, Westerville, Mifflin, Jefferson, Hilliard, UA, GC, Columbus, Delaware, Marion, Mt Vernon, Johnstown, Nerk, Heath, Picktown, Groveport, Dublin, Marysville and Ashley all have those requirements that I know of for sure because of friends or family trying to get on those depts.

LJ;945792 wrote:There hasn't been a dept hiring within about 1 hour of Columbus in the past few years that does not follow what I just said. My family has a lot of FF, as well as having a bunch of friends that are FF and all have applied for just about every opening in the past few years.

Maybe it's different from when you were applying, since you said you ran out of time. Everywhere around here requires certification, a physical test, a competency test and an interview.

Columbus does not require any certifications or prior training...

To take the civil service test, which is step one...

You must be at least 17 ½ years of age, a United States Citizen, possess a valid motor vehicle operator’s license, and possess a high school diploma or G.E.D. The Columbus Civil Service Commission will notify you of the time and place to report for your examination(s).

If hired...

Firefighter candidate names will be submitted to the Safety Director for final selection and appointment to the Department of Public Safety, Columbus Division of Fire, based on Columbus Civil Service Certification. Fire candidates will be notified by letter of an appointment date to the Fire Academy. Fire recruits will be required to successfully complete approximately thirty weeks of paid training when they enter the Columbus Fire Academy. All appointees will be required to successfully complete a one- year probationary period from date of appointment.

WebFire;945803 wrote:Columbus does not require any certifications or prior training...

To take the civil service test, which is step one...



If hired...

They have so many people prior certified that they are hardly taking people without prior certification.

Just like CPD isn't taking people who haven't been through a police academy or have x years of corrections.