Calling out sleeper

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queencitybuckeye

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7,117 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:06 PM
Why do people quote someone else's opinion and claim it as fact? That Sagarin calls something the toughest or 22nd toughest is an opinion. To state or imply that it somehow makes it so is incorrect.
Nov 29, 2010 12:06pm
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karen lotz

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22,284 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:11 PM
queencitybuckeye;580524 wrote:Why do people quote someone else's opinion and claim it as fact? That Sagarin calls something the toughest or 22nd toughest is an opinion. To state or imply that it somehow makes it so is incorrect.


It isn't like he just ranks the schedules based on what he likes and what he doesn't. There is an algorithm involved and his system is good enough to be included in the BCS. What about the other schedule ranking systems that have ND at #1? Are those incorrect too? I assume you think that OSU's schedule isn't really ranked somewhere in the 60s, on par with teams like Wyoming, right?
Nov 29, 2010 12:11pm
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FatHobbit

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8,651 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:15 PM
Lol, never is a long time. My guess is he will have a new user name just for ND threads.
Nov 29, 2010 12:15pm
ts1227's avatar

ts1227

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12,319 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:15 PM
queencitybuckeye;580524 wrote:Why do people quote someone else's opinion and claim it as fact? That Sagarin calls something the toughest or 22nd toughest is an opinion. To state or imply that it somehow makes it so is incorrect.

Sure, it's an opinion, but it is based on a hard data and a transparent algorithm. I'll take that over "herp derp I'm a Buckeye fan" in being more facutal regarding schedule strength any day of the year.
Nov 29, 2010 12:15pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

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7,117 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:16 PM
karen lotz;580531 wrote:It isn't like he just ranks the schedules based on what he likes and what he doesn't. There is an algorithm involved and his system is good enough to be included in the BCS. What about the other schedule ranking systems that have ND at #1? Are those incorrect too? I assume you think that OSU's schedule isn't really ranked somewhere in the 60s, on par with teams like Wyoming, right?

Not incorrect, just not "fact" as you implied. If it were fact, Sagarin and the "others" you reference here would be identical.
Nov 29, 2010 12:16pm
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krambman

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3,606 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:18 PM
queencitybuckeye;580524 wrote:Why do people quote someone else's opinion and claim it as fact? That Sagarin calls something the toughest or 22nd toughest is an opinion. To state or imply that it somehow makes it so is incorrect.

It's not an opinion when it's based on math. It's not like Jeff Sagarin is subjectively ranking schedules. He inputs data and the computer ranks the schedules. While that may not be fact, it's also not an opinion, it's a mathematical estimation of difficulty. It's basic statistics. Besides, almost all major news outlets use his SOS rankings when discussing a team's schedule. And even if you don't like his SOS rankings you can look at someone else's and you'll see them ranked similarly in the top 25. You'd be hard pressed to find any other team in the country that played 11 teams with winning records or 10 bowls teams. When you play in a conference that's impossible because some teams simply have to lose more games since they all play each other. They may not have played any huge world beaters this year, but just because someone had to play Oregon and Stanford doesn't mean that the rest of their schedule was difficult. Having to play winning and bowl eligible teams every week is much more difficult than having to play two top five teams and a bunch of schools that will be sitting around getting fat during bowl season (the Pac 10 only has three bowl eligible teams and only four with winning records, and Notre Dame played two of those teams).

I also think the "facts" that Karen was referring to wasn't necessarily the SOS rankings, but the fact that they played 11 winning teams, 10 of whom are going to be bowling. Those are facts.
Nov 29, 2010 12:18pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

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7,117 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:19 PM
ts1227;580537 wrote:Sure, it's an opinion, but it is based on a hard data and a transparent algorithm. I'll take that over "herp derp I'm a Buckeye fan" in being more facutal regarding schedule strength any day of the year.

By defintion, something can't be "more factual". Facts are binary, they are or they are not.
Nov 29, 2010 12:19pm
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karen lotz

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Nov 29, 2010 12:20 PM
queencitybuckeye;580541 wrote:Not incorrect, just not "fact" as you implied. If it were fact, Sagarin and the "others" you reference here would be identical.
I understand that. They all have different ways of computing the strength of schedule. My point is your buddy Skyhook said they had a weak schedule, when that isn't true, as shown by every SOS measuring stick except for OSU fans. Its funny how OSU's SOS is being compared with the likes of Boise St and TCU and Notre Dame's schedule is being blasted for being cupcake city.
Nov 29, 2010 12:20pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

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7,117 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:21 PM
krambman;580544 wrote:It's not an opinion when it's based on math.

If that were true, there would need to be only one computer poll included in the BCS, as they would all be the same.

The criteria included, excluded, and given what relative weights in any particular algorithm are subjective.
Nov 29, 2010 12:21pm
ts1227's avatar

ts1227

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12,319 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:22 PM
queencitybuckeye;580545 wrote:By defintion, something can't be "more factual". Facts are binary, they are or they are not.

OK then, opinions based on data carry more weight than ones pulled out of asses. Better?
Nov 29, 2010 12:22pm
S

sjmvsfscs08

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2,963 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:22 PM
We are gathered here today to decide whether sleeper lost the bet or not, not discuss Notre Dame. sleeper clearly has lost the bet. justincredible has lived up to his name yet again. What a mensch.
Nov 29, 2010 12:22pm
karen lotz's avatar

karen lotz

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Nov 29, 2010 12:23 PM
queencitybuckeye;580548 wrote:If that were true, there would need to be only one computer poll included in the BCS, as they would all be the same.

The criteria included, excluded, and given what relative weights in any particular algorithm are subjective.

Ok plug all the data from this season into the algorithm that you have researched and developed and then rank teams based on SOS. Shouldn't be too difficult for you.
Nov 29, 2010 12:23pm
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ytownfootball

Bold faced liar...

6,978 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:23 PM
Not to be a dick, but I hardly find much relevance in discussing strength of schedule for a team that went 7-5.
Nov 29, 2010 12:23pm
C

Con_Alma

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12,198 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:26 PM
ts1227;580549 wrote:OK then, opinions based on data carry more weight than ones pulled out of asses. Better?

That's certainly more accurate than presenting the Sagarin rating as factual.
Nov 29, 2010 12:26pm
krambman's avatar

krambman

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3,606 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:27 PM
queencitybuckeye;580548 wrote:If that were true, there would need to be only one computer poll included in the BCS, as they would all be the same.

The criteria included, excluded, and given what relative weights in any particular algorithm are subjective.

Correct, what goes into the formula and what weight certain things are given is based on someones opinion but that actual math itself isn't an opinion. Numbers aren't opinions, they're quantifiable data.
Nov 29, 2010 12:27pm
krambman's avatar

krambman

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Nov 29, 2010 12:32 PM
ytownfootball;580554 wrote:Not to be a dick, but I hardly find much relevance in discussing strength of schedule for a team that went 7-5.

Why not? Doesn't playing a tougher schedule somewhat justify going 7-5? If they had played two bowl eligible teams, then yeah, 7-5 would look crappy. But it looks less crappy when you did it against the schedule that they played. They just beat the fourth best team in the Pac-10 on the road. I bet you anything that if ND was in the Pac-10 this year that they would have finished no worse than fourth in the league and they probably would have won at least 8 or 9 games this year because they would have been playing an easier schedule.

Can't we just give credit where credit is due? It should be obvious to any reasonable person that Notre Dame finishing 7-5 this year is impressive give the fact that almost every skill player suffered a major injury this year and given the fact that they played 11 teams with winning records. Is 7-5 up to what Notre Dame standards should be? Nope. It is up to the standards they have set over the past decade? Yes. Is it better than what they should have done against this schedule with all the injuries they had? Absolutely.
Nov 29, 2010 12:32pm
C

centralbucksfan

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5,111 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:33 PM
ytownfootball;580554 wrote:Not to be a dick, but I hardly find much relevance in discussing strength of schedule for a team that went 7-5.

Or for any team for that matter.

Example 1a. Michigan beat ND 28-24, when ND was at FULL strength. OSU just toyed with Michigan like they are their little bitch. How did that better schedule work out for ND?

If your good, your good. You can compete with anyone on any given day. If your not very good, you get your ass handed to you by the good teams...ala Stanford 37 ND 14. Do you think that SOS really means something?
No offense, but outside of Stanford and MSU, ND schedule was not as great as some are making it out to be. And no, I don't give a shit what Sargarin thing says.

On top of that, as I pointed out in another thread....70 freaking teams out of 119 D1 schools make a bowl game. So its not like making a bowl game is really THAT impressive anymore. Shit, look at the number of 6-6 teams going to a bowl!
I don't mean to be a dick either, but this SOS arguement is complete bullshit whether its ND or any team for that matter.
Nov 29, 2010 12:33pm
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krambman

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Nov 29, 2010 12:39 PM
centralbucksfan;580584 wrote:Or for any team for that matter.

Example 1a. Michigan beat ND 28-24, when ND was at FULL strength. OSU just toyed with Michigan like they are their little bitch. How did that better schedule work out for ND?

If your good, your good. You can compete with anyone on any given day. If your not very good, you get your ass handed to you by the good teams...ala Stanford 37 ND 14. Do you think that SOS really means something?

On top of that, as I pointed out in another thread....70 freaking teams out of 119 D1 schools make a bowl game. So its not like making a bowl game is really THAT impressive anymore. Shit, look at the number of 6-6 teams going to a bowl!
I don't mean to be a dick either, but this SOS arguement is complete bullshit whether its ND or any team for that matter.

SOS kind of is crap when comparing a 7-5 team to an 11-1 team. However, if you are comparing teams of comparable records then it can be use useful tool. Why do you think SOS is always brought up when comparing Oregon, Auburn, and TCU (and Boise State before they lost) when talking about who should go to the national championship game? It's because they all have the same record so we need some we to separate them. At that point it because less about who is actually the best team, but who is more deserving based on who they played and how they beat them.
Nov 29, 2010 12:39pm
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sleeper

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Nov 29, 2010 12:39 PM
I will honor this bet effective immediately January 1st, 2011. This date signifies the end of the season for Notre Dame because we all know they don't play in any bowls that matter.
Nov 29, 2010 12:39pm
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sleeper

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Nov 29, 2010 12:40 PM
Until then, enjoy your bowl loss, I look forward to it.
Nov 29, 2010 12:40pm
karen lotz's avatar

karen lotz

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Nov 29, 2010 12:41 PM
centralbucksfan;580584 wrote:Or for any team for that matter.

Example 1a. Michigan beat ND 28-24, when ND was at FULL strength. OSU just toyed with Michigan like they are their little bitch. How did that better schedule work out for ND?

If your good, your good. You can compete with anyone on any given day. If your not very good, you get your ass handed to you by the good teams...ala Stanford 37 ND 14. Do you think that SOS really means something?
No offense, but outside of Stanford and MSU, ND schedule was not as great as some are making it out to be.

On top of that, as I pointed out in another thread....70 freaking teams out of 119 D1 schools make a bowl game. So its not like making a bowl game is really THAT impressive anymore. Shit, look at the number of 6-6 teams going to a bowl!
I don't mean to be a dick either, but this SOS arguement is complete bullshit whether its ND or any team for that matter.
ND was a full strength for the Michigan game? Maybe for the first drive when they went down the field and scored. If you remember, Crist couldn't see out of one of his eyes after that opening scoring drive and ND turned to a true freshman QB and then Nate Montana for the rest of the first half where the offense sputtered. Rudolph came into the season hobbled by his hamstring injury and ND had a starting safety out after injuring his ankle against Purdue.

also, it would be you're good or you are good, not your.

No offense but outside of Wisconsin and well that's about it, OSU's schedule wasn't as good as 60th or whatever its ranked.
Nov 29, 2010 12:41pm
C

Con_Alma

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12,198 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:41 PM
sleeper;580596 wrote:I will honor this bet effective immediately January 1st, 2011. ....
January 1st or immediately? They are two different times.
Nov 29, 2010 12:41pm
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krambman

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3,606 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:43 PM
I'm going to lunch. I look forward to reading what goes on here once I get back.
Nov 29, 2010 12:43pm
ytownfootball's avatar

ytownfootball

Bold faced liar...

6,978 posts
Nov 29, 2010 12:45 PM
krambman;580595 wrote:SOS kind of is crap when comparing a 7-5 team to an 11-1 team. However, if you are comparing teams of comparable records then it can be use useful tool. Why do you think SOS is always brought up when comparing Oregon, Auburn, and TCU (and Boise State before they lost) when talking about who should go to the national championship game? It's because they all have the same record so we need some we to separate them. At that point it because less about who is actually the best team, but who is more deserving based on who they played and how they beat them.
This has merit and is the way I was looking at things. There really is no point in comparing an 11-1 squad and a 7-5 team, but there has to be, at some point, a qualifier for some of the BCS bowl games. There really is no other measuring stick that has less voter influence than SOS.
Nov 29, 2010 12:45pm
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killer_ewok

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Nov 29, 2010 12:45 PM
centralbucksfan;580584 wrote:Or for any team for that matter.

Example 1a. Michigan beat ND 28-24, when ND was at FULL strength. OSU just toyed with Michigan like they are their little bitch. How did that better schedule work out for ND?

If your good, your good. You can compete with anyone on any given day. If your not very good, you get your ass handed to you by the good teams...ala Stanford 37 ND 14. Do you think that SOS really means something?
No offense, but outside of Stanford and MSU, ND schedule was not as great as some are making it out to be. And no, I don't give a shit what Sargarin thing says.

On top of that, as I pointed out in another thread....70 freaking teams out of 119 D1 schools make a bowl game. So its not like making a bowl game is really THAT impressive anymore. Shit, look at the number of 6-6 teams going to a bowl!
I don't mean to be a dick either, but this SOS arguement is complete bullshit whether its ND or any team for that matter.

Crist got hurt vs. Michigan and missed a quarter and half of the game. When he was in the game, ND's offense did very well against Michigan. When Tommy Rees and Nate Montana went in due to his injury, they turned the ball over and couldn't do squat.

Also, who's arguing that ND is better than OSU? And if ND heads to the Champs Sports Bowl...that's not that junky of a bowl. Miami(FL) played Wisconsin in that bowl last year.
Nov 29, 2010 12:45pm