TARP was necessary and there was no other choice. I'm a free market guy and don't generally support bailouts, but the horse was already out of the barn and our hand was forced. The free market guys needs to be a bit pragmatic and do what needs done, and then set about preventing that situation in the future.

And as for the auto bailouts...the free market proponent can't condemn them without also violating free market principles. Namely that the govt, as an investor and having a vested interest (taxes, on the hook for PBGC, etc..), can make a rational and perfectly sound NPV analysis that the bailout is the least cost alternative. Again, if you don't like govt bailouts in principle, you are talking two different things. Because under the rules of the game at the time, the bailout is what a free market player would choose in terms of minimizing losses. Changing or "fixing" the rules is a different story, but you can't change the rules after the fact.

The govt hasn't done much right the past 4-5 years, but they DID get the bailouts right. Now on the housing front they've been far less effective and successful.

IggyPride00;1182448 wrote:I saw John Kyl out recently touting the same Willard/Democrat line that cutting spending (in his case defense) will lead to a recession and we must avoid it.

Am I in a paralell universe right now or something? When did Republicans adopt the Democrat mantra of "thou shalt not cut govt spending for fear of a recession?"

Where is the Tea Party? I have been to Red State and the National Review, and not even a blog yet that Willard, the stand bearer of the party, has shunned all Conservative principal and indeology in adopting Democrat Party talking points about the importance of government spending.

He conceded that Govt spending does create jobs, which is a major tenant of the Democrat Party, and loathed and abhored by Conservatives and small government advocates?

So much for being "severely conservative" as Willard said in the primaries. Republicans and Conservatives have been conned into allowing a Massachusetts liberal to buy the party nomination to continue the expansion of government started by BHO.

I just want to know where the outrage is? We sent the Tea Party to Washington not even 2 years ago in the biggest electoral landside in almost a 100 years to shrink government. For all that work we get an an ideological leftist as a nominee who is espousing progressive talking points on government spending and everyone is just OK with it and continue to carry the guys water? What has happened to us?

Jon Kyl is a joke. He speaks about Government spending on one hand, and on the other wants to launch billions and billions of dollars, unneeded into the Nuclear Weapons programs for all new nukes. He also wants billions more for unproven missile defense systems. His arguments against the New START Treaty made no sense. The guy is a quack and am pretty happy he will not be in the Senate in 2013.

gut;1182490 wrote:The govt hasn't done much right the past 4-5 years, but they DID get the bailouts right.

Perhaps but this "free market guy" thinks GM and the UAW should have been sacrificed at the free market altar.

gut;1182490 wrote:Now on the housing front they've been far less effective and successful.

And now there's talk of severely reducing or even eliminating the mortgage interest deduction. I can tell you right now that if the Feds pull that lollipop out of the loop we ain't seen nothing yet.

I really hope they get rid of the mortgage deduction. It's time for the boomers to share some of the economic pain they are going to leave behind to my generation. Cuts to Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security would be the next step. The boomers have ruined this country and hopefully they live long enough to share in the destruction of the greatest country that ever was.

sleeper;1182526 wrote:I really hope they get rid of the mortgage deduction. It's time for the boomers to share some of the economic pain they are going to leave behind to my generation. Cuts to Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security would be the next step. The boomers have ruined this country and hopefully they live long enough to share in the destruction of the greatest country that ever was.

lmao If your generation has the answers then I guess we'll be OK. :thumbup:

believer;1182523 wrote: And now there's talk of severely reducing or even eliminating the mortgage interest deduction. I can tell you right now that if the Feds pull that lollipop out of the loop we ain't seen nothing yet.

Ehhh, you could be right about GM. I'm not sure someone else couldn't have stepped-in with the DIP financing. There's an example of the crowding out effect, but the credit markets were pretty much completely frozen.

I can't believe the mortgage interest deduction is getting legs again. Be a really smart move to rock the housing market and destroy even more value. The idea that I've heard - which maybe isn't a half-bad idea - is to limit the deduction to $400k in principal interest. And then, for the most part, above that you are talking mostly high income families. But with rates are where they are now, it's really not even that big of a cherry.

gut;1182610 wrote:I can't believe the mortgage interest deduction is getting legs again. Be a really smart move to rock the housing market and destroy even more value. The idea that I've heard - which maybe isn't a half-bad idea - is to limit the deduction to $400k in principal interest. And then, for the most part, above that you are talking mostly high income families. But with rates are where they are now, it's really not even that big of a cherry.

I agree but I'm referring to pre-existing conditions. In other words a lot of homeowners/borrowers already depend upon the mortgage deduction to "justify" or afford their mortgages.

It may not have been a prudent financial decision at the time for the borrower but the real estate industry has capitalized on it and the Feds laid that tasty cherry on the table. Millions have taken advantage of it. If the Feds decrease or, worse, eliminate the deduction you can bet that "affordability" will quickly fade and we'll see another round of defaults.

If what you are saying is correct (that the Feds want to cap the deduction at $400,000) I'm guessing that won't be too traumatic on the housing market. I suppose that if the eeeevil rich get bitch slapped it's no big deal.

So, by capping the home interest deduction at $400k, how many dollars will that generate to the Treasury? More importantly, does anyone think the evil scum rich will just sit back and take it? They didn't get wealthy by falling out of the idiot tree and hitting every branch.

This plan wreaks of more class warfare that solves nothing but makes the poor somehow feel better seeing "the man" get punished.

BGFalcons82;1182709 wrote:So, by capping the home interest deduction at $400k, how many dollars will that generate to the Treasury?

Not much but - hey - it'll give the idiots in DC a few more dollars of someone else's money to redistribute in the name of "fairness."

BGFalcons82;1182709 wrote:More importantly, does anyone think the evil scum rich will just sit back and take it? They didn't get wealthy by falling out of the idiot tree and hitting every branch.

What are you talking about? The eeevil rich are eeevil. They either don't deserve their success or cheated to get it or had it handed to them with a silver spoon. We should not only raise their taxes, we need to throw them in jail for having the audacity of having money they should be handing over willingly to the poor and down-trodden masses. In fact, taxing them at 100% isn't high enough. Success and wealth creation are qualities that need to be punished. Get it right.

BGFalcons82;1182709 wrote:This plan wreaks of more class warfare that solves nothing but makes the poor somehow feel better seeing "the man" get punished.

Class warfare will go away as soon as Big Government confiscates all wealth and redistributes it equitably and fairly. Only then will true economic utopia for all be realized. Apparently your political science and economics professors at BG did not do an adequate enough job of preparing you to be a mindless socialist automaton.

I'm just throwing out $400k because I heard about it a few years ago, governor or Senator from NY proposed that sometime in the last 10 years, I think.

It would be a pretty devastating hit. Even on $400k, with where interest rates are now you might be talking $11k annually in interest, and maybe $2500 in tax savings. While I don't think that savings (at these rates) is enough to spur defaults, it's still a nice chunk of disposable income. That's a big, big tax increase on a couple that might be making only $90k a year, but still only about 3%

But you can deduct up to $1.3M, I think. And the purpose of the deduction was to encourage savings - do people living in a $1.5M house really need a mortgage deduction?

Completely agree that you can't change the rules of the game after the fact. Let's take that $1.3M mortgage - $32k in interest, so maybe $11k in tax savings. That's almost $1000 a month you'd be increasing their taxes. Now let's say this couple is making $250k, and you've increased their taxes almost 5%.

believer;1182527 wrote:lmao If your generation has the answers then I guess we'll be OK. :thumbup:

My generation doesn't have a choice. The reckless spending by the boomers and the mentality that you can have everything and not have to pay for it has ruined this country. Half the people who's lives will be ruined by the now LEGACY of the baby boomer generation, haven't even graduated college yet. The other half graduated college and can't find suitable employment.

Thanks for ruining the country; for being an alleged Christian you sure as hell don't get a shit for the well being of others.

sleeper;1182842 wrote:Thanks for ruining the country; for being an alleged Christian you sure as hell don't get a shit for the well being of others.

You never squander an opportunity to disparage and ridicule someone's faith and attacking Christianity in general. I'm not sure what the obsession is and frankly don't give at rat's ass. But nice fail anyway.

You're worse the Obama. You never take responsibility, never lead by example, and always find someone else to blame for your problems.

I've had a job of some sort since I was 15 years old. No one has ever given me anything I haven't earned including the fact that in the past 4 decades I've never collected an unemployment check. I can easily say the same for nearly everyone I've been associated with in my greedy generation.

But since you excel in finger pointing and generalities, here's what I see in a lot but not all of you poor down-trodden Gen X & Y-ers: I see generations of spoiled brats born and raised to expect instantaneous gratification through advanced technologies developed by the selfish Boomers. You're obsessed with collecting the latest material gadgets & video games, you enjoy body mutilation through tattoos & body piercings for whatever stupid and vain purpose I've never been able to comprehend, and many in your generation have made it an art form by attempting to get away with doing as little as possible when your generation does find work.

I've worked my ass off for what I have and while I care about the future of my kids and grand kids, you're right...I don't give a shit about you.

sleeper;1182842 wrote:Thanks for ruining the country; for being an alleged Christian you sure as hell don't get a shit for the well being of others.

You never squander an opportunity to disparage and ridicule someone's faith and attacking Christianity in general. I'm not sure what the obsession is and frankly don't give a rat's ass. But nice fail anyway.

You're worse the Obama. You never take responsibility, never lead by example, and always find someone else to blame for your problems.

I've had a job of some sort since I was 15 years old. No one has ever given me anything I haven't earned including the fact that in the past 4 decades I've never collected an unemployment check. I can easily say the same for nearly everyone I've been associated with in my greedy generation.

But since you excel in finger pointing and generalities, here's what I see in a lot but not all of you poor down-trodden Gen X & Y-ers: I see generations of spoiled brats born and raised to expect instantaneous gratification through advanced technologies developed by the selfish Boomers. You're obsessed with collecting the latest material gadgets & video games, you enjoy body mutilation through tattoos & body piercings for whatever stupid and vain purpose I've never been able to comprehend, and many in your generation have made it an art form by attempting to get away with doing as little as possible when your generation does find work.

I've worked my ass off for what I have and while I care about the future of my kids and grand kids, you're right...I don't give a shit about you.

sleeper;1182842 wrote:Thanks for ruining the country; for being an alleged Christian you sure as hell don't get a shit for the well being of others.

You never squander an opportunity to disparage and ridicule someone's faith and attacking Christianity in general. I'm not sure what the obsession is and frankly don't give a rat's ass. But nice fail anyway.

You're worse the Obama. You never take responsibility, never lead by example, and always find someone else to blame for your problems.

I've had a job of some sort since I was 15 years old. No one has ever given me anything I haven't earned including the fact that in the past 4 decades I've never collected an unemployment check. I can easily say the same for nearly everyone I've been associated with in my greedy generation.

But since you excel in finger pointing and generalities, here's what I see in a lot but not all of you poor down-trodden Gen X & Y-ers: I see generations of spoiled brats born and raised to expect instantaneous gratification through advanced technologies developed by the selfish Boomers. You're obsessed with collecting the latest material gadgets & video games, you enjoy body mutilation through tattoos & body piercings for whatever stupid and vain purpose I've never been able to comprehend, and many in your generation have made it an art form by attempting to get away with doing as little as possible when your generation does find work.

I've worked my ass off for what I have and while I care about the future of my kids and grand kids. But you're right...I don't give a shit about you.

sleeper;1182842 wrote:Thanks for ruining the country; for being an alleged Christian you sure as hell don't get a shit for the well being of others.

You never squander an opportunity to disparage and ridicule someone's faith and attacking Christianity in general. I'm not sure what the obsession is and frankly don't give a rat's ass. But nice fail anyway.

You're worse the Obama. You never take responsibility, never lead by example, and always find someone else to blame for your problems.

I've had a job of some sort since I was 15 years old. No one has ever given me anything I haven't earned including the fact that in the past 4 decades I've never collected an unemployment check. I can easily say the same for nearly everyone I've been associated with in my greedy generation.

But since you excel in finger pointing and generalities, here's what I see in a lot but not all of you poor down-trodden Gen X & Y-ers: I see generations of spoiled brats born and raised to expect instantaneous gratification through advanced technologies developed by the selfish Boomers. You're obsessed with collecting the latest material gadgets & video games, you enjoy body mutilation through tattoos & body piercings for whatever stupid and vain purpose I've never been able to comprehend, and many in your generations have made it an art form by attempting to get away with doing as little as possible when your generations do find work.

I've worked my ass off for what I have and I care about the future of my kids and grand kids. But you're right about one thing...I don't give a shit about you.

Who raised my generation? LOL

Sorry, but books are already being written about the baby boomers and how their entitlement mentality has destroyed this country. You claim to care about the future of your children but all you've done is burden them with debt they will never be able to pay for. Your generation has enjoyed the highest standard of living ever for your entire life because you've mortgaged the future generations with terrible debt. Your kids are big trouble, but as long as you get your pension, you are all set.

I only point out the Christian faith in you because you are a hypocrite.

"I see generations of spoiled brats born and raised to expect instantaneous gratification through advanced technologies developed by the selfish Boomers."

I'll trade my iPhone (I actually don't have one - still on blackberry, how about my iPad) in for my father's pension...if I knew then what I know now (and extrapolating that to the rest of the U.S. youth at the time) I'd (and we'd all) be government drones retiring at age 60 with full health benefits.

I don't think generational warfare is any more helpful than class warfare, but on the other hand I don't see how anyone can deny that the boomers killed us fiscally. I don't blame you, nor my father, nor any other individual in particular. I do blame the groupthink and lack of foresight that led us in to this mess - our economy just didn't implode for no reason. And what's worse is that all attempts to fix it are focused on the younger people.

I think the OWS people are completely misguided and have made that opinion known often, but we're good friends with a couple in their late 50's with two children recently graduating from college (Purdue and Mizzou) who have absolutely ZERO job prospects even with relatively wealthy and Republican parents from San Francisco (go figure) that have a network of connections that would be the envy of anyone - and there are still NO jobs for them. Something went wrong, very, very wrong and even though you and I might be dubious of the attitudes of the 20 somethings the fact is the economy is godawful for them and it is going to trickle up. Having many discussions with them I see where the frustration from our younger people emanates from.

sleeper;1182526 wrote:I really hope they get rid of the mortgage deduction. It's time for the boomers to share some of the economic pain they are going to leave behind to my generation. Cuts to Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security would be the next step. The boomers have ruined this country and hopefully they live long enough to share in the destruction of the greatest country that ever was.

So I should be ruined because the leaders we've elected (not just my generation, all of us) happen to be in my age bracket?

Manhattan Buckeye;1183094 wrote:Something went wrong, very, very wrong and even though you and I might be dubious of the attitudes of the 20 somethings the fact is the economy is godawful for them and it is going to trickle up. Having many discussions with them I see where the frustration from our younger people emanates from.

As do I. But, as you pointed out earlier, to lump all Boomers into a generational hate fest is counter productive.

By far most Boomers I know are hard working, productive taxpaying citizens. We had little to do with the decisions made by the "elite" of our generation (and the WWII generation for that matter)...the fine folk in gubmint, unions, and corporations who made mindless economic decisions we're all paying for....not just Sleeper's whiny tattooed minions.

This is not a generational issue. We are paying for decades of mindless and relentless liberalism infecting our schools, universities, media, unions, and government. The entitlement mentality is hardly a Boomer phenomenon. It began with FDR's Raw Deal and has grown exponentially ever since. Boomers and Gen X & Y-er are all guilty of it. And it won't change until we all decide enough is enough.

Based on what we're seeing in DC and that fact that our "choice" this fall is Obama or Romney, I get the feeling we're not quite ready to let go.

Manhattan Buckeye;1183094 wrote:Something went wrong, very, very wrong and even though you and I might be dubious of the attitudes of the 20 somethings the fact is the economy is godawful for them and it is going to trickle up. Having many discussions with them I see where the frustration from our younger people emanates from.

As do I. But, as you pointed out earlier, to lump all Boomers into a generational hate fest is counter productive.

By far most Boomers I know are hard working, productive taxpaying citizens. We had little to do with the decisions made by the "elite" of our generation (and the WWII generation for that matter)...the fine folk in gubmint, unions, and corporations who made mindless economic decisions we're all paying for....not just Sleeper's whiny tattooed minions.

This is not a generational issue. We are paying for decades of mindless and relentless liberalism infecting our schools, universities, media, unions, and government. The entitlement mentality is hardly a Boomer phenomenon. It began with FDR's Raw Deal and has grown exponentially ever since. Boomers and Gen X & Y-er are all guilty of it. And it won't change until we all decide enough is enough.

Based on what we're seeing in DC and that fact that our "choice" this fall is Obama or Romney, I get the feeling we're not quite ready to let go.

sleeper;1182898 wrote:I only point out the Christian faith in you because you are a hypocrite.

Actually you point it out in me because you think Christians should keep our mouths shut. I'm not perfect which is why I choose to follow the only man to ever walk the earth who was.

If calling a spade a spade makes me a hypocritical Christian, then so be it.

queencitybuckeye;1183109 wrote:So I should be ruined because the leaders we've elected (not just my generation, all of us) happen to be in my age bracket?

It's the American way.

I agree with MB as well. I know plenty of Ohio State graduates that are waiting tables and working meaningless jobs; or going back to grad school to waste more money on jobs that won't be there then either.

My high school is even worse off. Out of my small sample size of college bound students, I only know 6 with full time jobs with most of those being in insurance sales.

Boomers have no idea. They spent trillions of dollars they didn't have and think they accomplished something by building this great country. It's akin to someone buying a nice car, a nice house on a credit card and thinking they are successful. They are already writing books about the Boomer generation and how its destroyed this country; like I said, that is their legacy. I'm hopeful that my generation will be known as the greatest for getting America back on its feet, and doing it the right way.

sleeper;1183188 wrote:I'm hopeful that my generation will be known as the greatest for getting America back on its feet, and doing it the right way.

While there do seem to be some smart, level-headed Gen X & Y-ers out there (Manhattan Buckeye, Gut, and some others are prime examples), what I see from the Minimalist Body Mutilation Generations doesn't inspire much hope in me for our country's future.

But in all fairness, Sleeper, I hope you're right.

believer;1183287 wrote:While there do seem to be some smart, level-headed Gen X & Y-ers out there (Manhattan Buckeye, Gut, and some others are prime examples), what I see from the Minimalist Body Mutilation Generations doesn't inspire much hope in me for our country's future.

But in all fairness, Sleeper, I hope you're right.

I don't mean to imply that my generation isn't full of morons, but that my generation doesn't have +60 trillion or so to mess around with. In fact, we have to try to get by with -60 trillion. It's much easier for stupid people to get by with a decent life with the former and not the latter.

I'm not sure I follow the blame game for a generation of people. Each generation of Americans had their own share of seemingly insurmountable problems. They found ways to solve them...some worked and some didn't. I just don't see how those born between 1945 and 1960 are to blame for the wanton disregard of fiscal sanity that is the latest insurmountable obstacle concerning our debt cliff. In fact, if any generation is responsible for promising utopia are the Progressives of Teddy Roosevelt and further with FDR.

I choose to not place blame on a group of folks born at the same time, but on a mindset and philosophy that has its roots in, "to each according to their needs from each according to their means." Those professing federal big government solutions for every problem have driven us to the cliff and they are to blame, not the boomers.