Danny Ferry is gone because LeBron wanted him to be.

Regardless, the Cavs will be fine. I think LeBron stays (about 95% sure)

BUT, if he doesn't the Cavs will be fine. NBA teams get money from tv deals/endorsements/marketing/etc.. With that said, the Cavs have the richest TV deal in the league with FSO and it's signed on for 3 or 4 more years. So even WITHOUT LeBron, the Cavs will be making money.

As far as Dan Gilbert spending money if LeBron leaves, he'll do whatever is needed. I think they'd take a 2 or 3 year rebuild/reload period to straighten up the roster. No way Gilbert unloads/relocates the Cavs with a Casino opening up in Cleveland. Bad business move.

He's a billionaire, he'll be fine.

Ok, well Krazie just knocked it out of the park.

/thread.

BR1986FB;379496 wrote:I recently heard a comment that I think is pretty accurate when describing the Kobe/Lebron debate. When asked "who would you rather have, Lebron or Kobe?" the person answered "I'll take Lebron for the first 44 minutes of the game but Kobe for the last 4."

The real question is who would you take in a meaningless game in Nov,Dec,Jan etc and who would you take in a game that had meaning. I'm pretty sure it would be 98% Kobe in the meaningful game with 2 votes for Lebron coming from sq and sleeper. What people fail to realize is that Kobe is playing at as high a level as ever in his 14th freakin year in the association. Lets see where Lebron is at in his 14th year.

I just want this to all be over. I hate to wish away my summer but I am just tired of arguing with people about whether he stays or goes. I always thought he would stay and I still do however I don't think giving him all this power is a good thing if that is what is happening.

Skyhook79;379756 wrote:The real question is who would you take in a meaningless game in Nov,Dec,Jan etc and who would you take in a game that had meaning. I'm pretty sure it would be 98% Kobe in the meaningful game with 2 votes for Lebron coming from sq and sleeper. What people fail to realize is that Kobe is playing at as high a level as ever in his 14th freakin year in the association. Lets see where Lebron is at in his 14th year.

I wholeheartedly agree that in a meaningful game, Kobe's the guy as much as it pains me to say it.

just_a_swimmer;379774 wrote:I just want this to all be over. I hate to wish away my summer but I am just tired of arguing with people about whether he stays or goes. I always thought he would stay and I still do however I don't think giving him all this power is a good thing if that is what is happening.

A-Freakin-Men!!!

I'm asked to provide attendance stats of pre Lebron and post Lebron, and when I do it's irrelevant?

It's just stupid to think that as many people will be attending Cavs games without Lebron.

And as someone said before, Gilbert doesnt mind paying the luxury tax when his team has Lebron and is increasing in value year by year. It's a different story when he doesn't have Lebron, doesn't have the sell outs and doesn't have the corporate sponsors spending the same kind of money.

Someone mentioned that Gilbert won't be moving the Cavs because of the Casino? What do they have to do with each other? I don't think he moves the Cavs either, but I don't think the Casino has anything at all to do with it.

New GM will be Maverick Carter and Jay Z will be the next coach.

wes_mantooth;379804 wrote:New GM will be Maverick Carter and Jay Z will be the next coach.

HOVA!

Krazie- The franchise has changed because of L_E_B_R_O_N, end of story. Yes the culture changed, and I think we know why. Once that reason leaves, if he does, the culture will change again. There's some people that'll be Cavs fans no matter what (probably the same people that filled half the arena up before LBJ came). But that fan base will take a huge hit without LBJ there and a very competitive team. Blast dynasty all you want, he actually gave valid info, but since it isn't what you want to hear, it's irrelevant. Guess what, all that bs you just spit out was pretty irrelevant as well. I can't tell you how many people I know that are on the Cavs/LBJ's nuts right now.. but several years ago, they never mentioned the Cavs because they weren't anything special to talk about. If LBJ leaves this year, so do a good amount of support. A playoff team will be a bandage for the next year or two, but after that, less and less will show up until they find a new guy to be the face of that franchise. If he never leaves, we'd never know that outcome.

jpake1;379899 wrote:Krazie- The franchise has changed because of L_E_B_R_O_N, end of story. Yes the culture changed, and I think we know why. Once that reason leaves, if he does, the culture will change again. There's some people that'll be Cavs fans no matter what (probably the same people that filled half the arena up before LBJ came). But that fan base will take a huge hit without LBJ there and a very competitive team. Blast dynasty all you want, he actually gave valid info, but since it isn't what you want to hear, it's irrelevant. Guess what, all that bs you just spit out was pretty irrelevant as well. I can't tell you how many people I know that are on the Cavs/LBJ's nuts right now.. but several years ago, they never mentioned the Cavs because they weren't anything special to talk about. If LBJ leaves this year, so do a good amount of support. A playoff team will be a bandage for the next year or two, but after that, less and less will show up until they find a new guy to be the face of that franchise. If he never leaves, we'd never know that outcome.

You're right, LeBron did change the culture. Much like Jim Brown did back in the day for the Browns. His play got the fans excited about the Browns, an excitement that remains today years after Brown retired and despite the lack of success. (which again you'll probably ignore this argument because you can't rebut it). The fact is that the Cavs never had a superstar like LeBron on their team before in their history. He brought a new excitement to Cavaliers basketball. He ushered in a new generation of Cavs fans (not the one's who half filled up the arena before LeBron like you said, but new fans. Fans that had never been to a game).

You say dynasty's stuff is relevant. I ask how. How does bringing up the attendance figures before LeBron came, before the team identity change, before the upgrades to the arena were made, before the Cavs experienced much success, before the Cavs ever had a franchise player reflect how they will be without LeBron? I ask how anyone could find that relevant. The fact is you can't project something like that until it actually happens.

You say a playoff team will be a "bandage" for a year or two and then support will drop like a rock. Do you know what can happen in "a year or two"? The Cavs could sign a marquee free agent to become the face of the franchise. The Cavs could draft a guy that becomes a superstar and face of the franchise. People act like LeBron leaving would be the death of the Cavaliers. Like I've said before, the Cavs were around 30 years before LeBron and will be around 30 years after. I guarantee you the Cavs will sell out every game that LeBron's new team comes to town to boo the hell out of him. I can tell you that as long as the Cavs field a competitive team and have a front office willing to do what it takes to win, fans will come.

^ You could say that about any franchise. Just because people don't attend games or flaunt their fan hood doesn't mean they aren't fans. Non-Cavs fans are just looking for ways to diminish the recent success of the franchise and quite possibly the greatest player to ever play the game and that's all there is to it. Pretty sad that you have to resort to the bandwagon label, but it's cool, we still have Lebron.

krazie45;379903 wrote:You're right, LeBron did change the culture. Much like Jim Brown did back in the day for the Browns. His play got the fans excited about the Browns, an excitement that remains today years after Brown retired and despite the lack of success. (which again you'll probably ignore this argument because you can't rebut it). The fact is that the Cavs never had a superstar like LeBron on their team before in their history. He brought a new excitement to Cavaliers basketball. He ushered in a new generation of Cavs fans (not the one's who half filled up the arena before LeBron like you said, but new fans. Fans that had never been to a game).

You say dynasty's stuff is relevant. I ask how. How does bringing up the attendance figures before LeBron came, before the team identity change, before the upgrades to the arena were made, before the Cavs experienced much success, before the Cavs ever had a franchise player reflect how they will be without LeBron? I ask how anyone could find that relevant. The fact is you can't project something like that until it actually happens.

You say a playoff team will be a "bandage" for a year or two and then support will drop like a rock. Do you know what can happen in "a year or two"? The Cavs could sign a marquee free agent to become the face of the franchise. The Cavs could draft a guy that becomes a superstar and face of the franchise. People act like LeBron leaving would be the death of the Cavaliers. Like I've said before, the Cavs were around 30 years before LeBron and will be around 30 years after. I guarantee you the Cavs will sell out every game that LeBron's new team comes to town to boo the hell out of him. I can tell you that as long as the Cavs field a competitive team and have a front office willing to do what it takes to win, fans will come.

...Which again I'll probably ignore? What? This is the first time I've spoken to you about this. You were having the discussion with dynasty, not me. And yes I can rebut it. You're talking about the Browns. They've always had good fans, probably because it's football-- just a bigger beast than NBA ball. You're talking about apples and oranges pal. Here is something you can't rebut-- the Cavs fans were pretty crappy several years ago. They just happened to suck back then as well. Hmm? If they Cavs aren't a good team in the near future, the support will go down. That's just my opinion. But please don't talk about the Browns in relation to the Cavs. Different sports and teams. The Cavs have had poor attendance within just this decade.

It's relevant because it shows Cleveland's support for a poor basketball team. If LBJ isn't there, and the team isn't playing playoff ball in the future, attendance will go down. That's not a fact, just my opinion. You're whole opinion is based on this TEAM stuff. Sorry, I don't believe in it. It's because of one single man, LeBron James. You talk about the team identity changing-- well, if he leaves, it WILL change again, and not for the good. There are SO many people all excited about the Cavs because of LBJ. It's his jersey they buy. It's him they're in awe of. If you're telling me I can project stuff, then why the fuck are you doing it? Look in a mirror before you type nonsense. And yes you can project stuff. We do it ALL the time. It's called an educated opinion. It isn't hurting anybody.

I know what can happen in a year or two. Did you read the part about me saying 'until they find a guy to replace LBJ'? Somebody said the fans are locked into next year for tickets or something. That's why I said in a year or two. I think the Cavs can be a playoff team next year without LBJ. But who knows who will be on this team after 2 years. LBJ leaving won't be the death of them, but that place WON'T resemble what it has the past 2 years. I don't think it'll ever get as bad as Z's early days.

jpake, the Cavs didn't sell out because they SUCKED, not because they didn't have LeBron. We didn't have LeBron back in the late 80's early 90's but those games were sold out.

Hell, the Heat can't even sell out games WITH Wade.

LeBron is the most popular/best player on the team so of course he's going to sell the most jerseys. That doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of Williams jerseys, Varejao jerseys, Gibson jerseys, etc. that people have. I'm not doubting that attendance/team popularity will go down if LeBron leaves, nor if the Cavs do poorly. My response was geared towards those saying that it would be the death of the Cavs, no one will show up, yadda yadda yadda. The Browns thing was more in response to those trying to compare the Cavs to the Indians.

My reasoning for saying you can't compare pre-LeBron to post-LeBron is because the Cavs never had a superstar player before LeBron. ANY time a team loses it's best/most marketable player it's going to lose some support. It's going to happen to the Lakers when Kobe retires as well. My point is actually the one you made at the end of your post. We're not going to see the type of team/support we saw in the Gund Era because the team is a lot different now. New owner, better team, upgraded arena, hell even a new logo and colors....a new brand if you will. Over the past seven years the Cavs were finally able to build a consistent fanbase that regularly attends games at the Q (something they couldn't do for almost 10 years thanks to the drastic relocation of the arena coupled with the teams' lack of success. If the Cavs are the worst team in the NBA for 5 straight years are we going to see attendance dwindle? Sure....that would happen with any professional sports team. The LeBron era has built a new base of Cavalier diehards though that didn't exist before. Which means the Cavs will have better attendance than they used to, better merchandise sales than they used to, better TV viewership than they used to. You think Gilbert doesn't understand the importance of making sure the Cavs stay competitive even if they lose LeBron? Not only does he own the team but he's building a casino in Cleveland. He wants 15-20,000 people going to Cavs games so they can spend their money at his casino before or after the game. It's just smart business. I may be in the minority, but I don't see Dan Gilbert turning into Ted Stepien just because LeBron leaves.

Did the magic shut down after Shaq left? No, they rebuilt the team and now they're a perennial contender with a face of the franchise in D12. I expect you'll see the Cavs do the same.

hoops23;379935 wrote:jpake, the Cavs didn't sell out because they SUCKED, not because they didn't have LeBron. We didn't have LeBron back in the late 80's early 90's but those games were sold out.

Hell, the Heat can't even sell out games WITH Wade.

This is a point I've been trying to explain, but no one seems to be able to pick up on it. For twenty years the Cavs built a brand in Richfield and had very good attendance. Part of that was the miracle of Richfield team in 1976, it brought people to the arena and they stayed through the early 90s with the success of the Price/Daugherty teams. Then they move the arena to a completely new area that wasn't the downtown you see today and didn't have a good team to bring people to the arena. Finally LeBron gave people a reason to make the trip to downtown Cleveland and spend money on Cavs games. Over seven years the Cavs were able to build up a base of season ticket holders and regular patrons that came to see LeBron yes, but also came to see the Cavs because they're Cleveland's team and they're successful. Based on what Gilbert has shown so far as an owner, and the fact that he's a multi billionaire with vested business ventures in the city of Cleveland that are directly affected by the success of the Cavs I have no doubt that he is going to continue to make the Cavs as successful and marketable as possible even if LeBron leaves. For all we know LeBron leaves and the Cavs become a subject of the Ewing Theory (as created by Bill Simmons, look it up)....in that case people WILL come to see the Cavs.

The Cavs are a worldwide brand now thanks to LeBron, Gilbert, and other factors (Chinese owners). This is something they NEVER were.

I've never seen a Mo Williams or Varejao jersey here in Columbus. Sure a few might have them in Cleveland because you can get them in the team gift shop, but there are not a lot of people with them.

I'm not saying attendance drops to 10,000 per game next year. I still think they have good crowds, but not as good. The NBA is a star driven league and the Cavaliers have been able to change their culture because they have the biggest star. To think that anything other than Lebron is the reason why the attendance figures have changed over the last 7 years is just ignorant. I've been to 1-2 Cavs games each year for the past 5 years or so, and I will tell you that if Lebron wasn't playing, I'm not making the drive from Columbus.

I understand people being in denial, because no one wants to think how bad the Cavs situation is if Lebron leaves. Currently they have no coach or GM, they have an average roster that is at the salary cap and they are in a terrible city in cold weather. That's why in 3-4 years you will see the impact of Lebron. The corporate sponsors leave, the TV deal is redone, attendance is down and you are all of a sudden waiting to get lucky in the lottery again.

I just don't see a top free agent ever picking Cleveland over most NBA cities. What brings someone to Cleveland?

Let's just hope that Lebron is more loyal than anyone thinks.

thedynasty1998;379946 wrote:I've never seen a Mo Williams or Varejao jersey here in Columbus. Sure a few might have them in Cleveland because you can get them in the team gift shop, but there are not a lot of people with them.

I'm not saying attendance drops to 10,000 per game next year. I still think they have good crowds, but not as good. The NBA is a star driven league and the Cavaliers have been able to change their culture because they have the biggest star. To think that anything other than Lebron is the reason why the attendance figures have changed over the last 7 years is just ignorant. I've been to 1-2 Cavs games each year for the past 5 years or so, and I will tell you that if Lebron wasn't playing, I'm not making the drive from Columbus.

I understand people being in denial, because no one wants to think how bad the Cavs situation is if Lebron leaves. Currently they have no coach or GM, they have an average roster that is at the salary cap and they are in a terrible city in cold weather. That's why in 3-4 years you will see the impact of Lebron. The corporate sponsors leave, the TV deal is redone, attendance is down and you are all of a sudden waiting to get lucky in the lottery again.

I just don't see a top free agent ever picking Cleveland over most NBA cities. What brings someone to Cleveland? As someone who lives in Columbus why would you be expected to drive over 2 hours to attend more than a few games a year? (I only attend a few games a year because of this, I attended more when I lived in Warren which was much closer.) The majority of fans at a Cavs games live in or around Cleveland. Those are the people that are going to make a difference.

Let's just hope that Lebron is more loyal than anyone thinks.

The Cavs do have a GM I don't know why you keep saying this. Here's a very nice article about his background and what exactly he brings to the franchise: http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/06/new_cleveland_cavaliers_genera.html

As for the coach, they will eventually have a new one. It was clear that Mike Brown had taken them as far as he could and it was time to go in a new direction. You what other teams don't have coaches? The Bulls, Nets, and Clippers....three of the teams in the LeBron sweepstakes.

The NBA is a star driven league but Clevenad fans have proven that they will support the Cavs if they win or are trying to win. They proved this in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. Hell if LeBron leaves I know people who have said they'll root for the Cavs more than ever just to spite him. With Gilbert as the owner I see no reason as to why the Cavs won't continue to keep a culture of winning. What brings FA's to Cleveland? What brought Boozer to Utah (a place with even less to do and worse weather)....MONEY. Dan Gilbert happens to have a lot of it. The NBA is a star driven league and stars are attracted to money. You say Gilbert won't continue to spend without LeBron, well he's going to have to if he wants to continue to profit off of the Cavs and create a steady clientèle for his new casino.

The main focus of my points is to those saying that 90% of Cavs fans were there for LeBron. LeBron plays for the Cavs, the Cavs play in Cleveland. Most basketball fans in Cleveland are Cavs fans. Most basketball fans in Ohio are Cavs fans (being the only pro team there). The Cavs will survive with or without LeBron. Obviously it's ideal for LeBron to stay but it won't be the end of the world if he doesn't.

hoops23;379935 wrote:jpake, the Cavs didn't sell out because they SUCKED, not because they didn't have LeBron. We didn't have LeBron back in the late 80's early 90's but those games were sold out.

Hell, the Heat can't even sell out games WITH Wade.

I know that. Did you read my post? I touched on that quite a few times. If they aren't good, people won't show up like now. It's just not LBJ. If they're winning 52 games without him, people will come. They just won't be winning that many without him. They've got a solid cast of guys for 2-3 more years (Mo, Jamison, etc). If they can't rebuild after that, attendance and support will go down IMO.

I understand what you are trying to say, and I disagree with it. I don't think 90% of Cavs fans were there before Lebron. Hopefully we never find out, as Lebron will resign. But if he doesn't, we will find over the next few years.

BTW, what do you keep mentioning the casino? What does that have to do with the Cavs? I know Gilbert owns it, but I don't see the connection between the two.

krazie45;379938 wrote:LeBron is the most popular/best player on the team so of course he's going to sell the most jerseys. That doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of Williams jerseys, Varejao jerseys, Gibson jerseys, etc. that people have. I'm not doubting that attendance/team popularity will go down if LeBron leaves, nor if the Cavs do poorly. My response was geared towards those saying that it would be the death of the Cavs, no one will show up, yadda yadda yadda. The Browns thing was more in response to those trying to compare the Cavs to the Indians.

My reasoning for saying you can't compare pre-LeBron to post-LeBron is because the Cavs never had a superstar player before LeBron. ANY time a team loses it's best/most marketable player it's going to lose some support. It's going to happen to the Lakers when Kobe retires as well. My point is actually the one you made at the end of your post. We're not going to see the type of team/support we saw in the Gund Era because the team is a lot different now. New owner, better team, upgraded arena, hell even a new logo and colors....a new brand if you will. Over the past seven years the Cavs were finally able to build a consistent fanbase that regularly attends games at the Q (something they couldn't do for almost 10 years thanks to the drastic relocation of the arena coupled with the teams' lack of success. If the Cavs are the worst team in the NBA for 5 straight years are we going to see attendance dwindle? Sure....that would happen with any professional sports team. The LeBron era has built a new base of Cavalier diehards though that didn't exist before. Which means the Cavs will have better attendance than they used to, better merchandise sales than they used to, better TV viewership than they used to. You think Gilbert doesn't understand the importance of making sure the Cavs stay competitive even if they lose LeBron? Not only does he own the team but he's building a casino in Cleveland. He wants 15-20,000 people going to Cavs games so they can spend their money at his casino before or after the game. It's just smart business. I may be in the minority, but I don't see Dan Gilbert turning into Ted Stepien just because LeBron leaves.

Did the magic shut down after Shaq left? No, they rebuilt the team and now they're a perennial contender with a face of the franchise in D12. I expect you'll see the Cavs do the same.

Ok, I gotcha then. We agree that attendance will be done without him there. I NEVER EVER said anything other than that. Not sure why you even argued with me then if you felt the same??? I didn't say it would be the death of them, ever. I didn't know anybody even did, but then again, I didn't read ever post on here. I thought people were just pointing out that attendance will go down without him in town.

jpake1;379976 wrote:I know that. Did you read my post? I touched on that quite a few times. If they aren't good, people won't show up like now. It's just not LBJ. If they're winning 52 games without him, people will come. They just won't be winning that many without him. They've got a solid cast of guys for 2-3 more years (Mo, Jamison, etc). If they can't rebuild after that, attendance and support will go down IMO.

I will say that there's a better chance that people will come if they suck after LeBron than they did before LeBron. This was my point about the new generation of fans, etc. The Cavs have new meaning and importance in Cleveland that wasn't there before. Attendance will go down if they lose no doubt, but I think that there will be more people there than than there were before LeBron just because they have that connection with the Cavs that wasn't there before. Many people went to their first Cavs game during the LeBron era. I think the Cavs have a place in the city that wasn't there previously....is it the same that the Browns have where people will show up no matter what? No I don't think so. But it was always my theory that if LeBron spent his career in Cleveland and won a few championships that Cleveland would become a Cavs town and you would see that kind of unconditional support that you do with the Browns....especially since it's easier to pack a 20,000 seat arena than a 75,000 seat stadium or a 45,000 seat ballpark.

jpake1;379982 wrote:Ok, I gotcha then. We agree that attendance will be done without him there. I NEVER EVER said anything other than that. Not sure why you even argued with me then if you felt the same??? I didn't say it would be the death of them, ever. I didn't know anybody even did, but then again, I didn't read ever post on here. I thought people were just pointing out that attendance will go down without him in town.

Yea I guess it wasn't so much the attendance as it was the Cavs going back to being an afterthought in Cleveland like they were in the years right before LeBron. You won't see the season sellouts like they had with LeBron but you won't see them being the last in the NBA either. I think it'll be somewhere in the middle. I think people are happy with the Cavs as a franchise (especially if you compare their front office to that of the other two teams thought the Browns seem to be on a better track in that regard) and therefore will show them some support.

Obviously if LeBron goes, the teams isn't as good and attendance drops...but I think the Cavs are firmly the 2nd most popular team in Cleveland for a while regardless of what happens.

I think LeBron leaving leaves a sour taste with Cleveland fans towards LeBron not the organization. Most fans agree that the organization has tried to do everything in its power to keep LeBron and win a championship. It hasn't happen but that's more on the players and coaches. It's LeBron's choice and he'd be leaving a team he has had success with in pretty much every way short of winning a championship. It's not like KG in Minnesota. I think if LeBron leaves people see it as his choice of going to a bigger market or playing with players he perceives to be better that are in place instead of being forced out because the team didn't do enough for him.

It's not like when the Indians refused to shell out the money for people like Manny and Thome or when they traded two Cy Young winners in consecutive years, or when they refused to try and improve the roster after 2007. People were pissed at the organization and the current lack of attendance is the fallout of that more than the losing record in my opinion.

I'm going to say this one last time as well:

There have been 6 NBA Champions since LeBron came into the league... NONE of those teams had LeBron on them.

I hope to god he stays, but if he doesn't, life will go on and so will basketball in Cleveland.

Not only that, but Cleveland will support a winner, regardless of if they have LeBron or not. Sure, some of the bandwagon fans may leave, but so what? We know we have an owner we can trust, who has not only instilled a championship type of atmosphere to the Cavs, but has also put a lot of stock into the City of Cleveland itself.

You can give me the option of ALWAYS having LeBron James and NEVER winning a title (not that I don't think he will win one, because he will) or a team of guys who know their role (similar to the '04 Pistons) and wins a title next season or the season after.. I'll take the title every time, just as I'm sure the real Cleveland fans would as well.

And if LeBron leaves Cleveland, the onus will be on him, not the organization. Everybody knows the Cavs will offer him the most money and that Dan Gilbert has tried to do everything he could have so far to keep LeBron happy.

If LeBron leaves he becomes the most hated sports figure in Cleveland.