Also, who will be shelling out money to go see Antwan Jamison, Mo Williams, Delonte West, Jamario Moon, and Anderson Varejeao? Because that's their starting lineup if LeBron leaves.

Sage;379390 wrote:Cavs fans may still "support" the Cavs, but they won't be going to the games. I'm sure most of Cleveland "supports" the Indians...but they're not going to games, buying merchandise, etc.

Small market teams in baseball can survive due to revenue sharing from TV contracts and such...but in the NBA? No, because they don't have that kind of revenue sharing. The Cavaliers were going to leave Cleveland before LeBron came, which is why David Stern fixed the lottery in the first place.

Well you've managed to make three unsubstantiated opinions and try to pass them off as facts....congrats. Unfortunately a lot of people on here aren't gullible idiots.

1. Cavs fans won't be going to games-Won't be able to tell that for sure until it happens. NBA tickets are expensive and Cleveland's economy isn't exactly booming but fans will still go. There will still be a competitive team on the floor as long as Gilbert is owner. It's during a period (winter) where there's not much else to do, plus it's downtown. I think you'll still see plenty of Cavs fans going to games and buying merchandise. I may be wrong but at least I identify it as an opinion and provide reasons why as opposed to just throwing shit to the wall and seeing if it'll stick

2. The Cavs were going to leave Cleveland before LeBron came-Doubtful then, won't happen now. There is no way in HELL after the Browns that Cleveland would ever let another Pro team leave. Especially with the arena's recent upgrades and the importance of it to the gateway district. The Cavs won't be leaving Cleveland anytime in the near future.

3. David Stern fixed the lottery-LOL ok. If he cared so much about the poor small market Cavs why did the Sonics move? If the lottery is getting fixed it's going to be like back with Ewing. A LARGE market team would've gotten LeBron had Stern fixed the lottery. Nice try though bud.

Sage;379397 wrote:Also, who will be shelling out money to go see Antwan Jamison, Mo Williams, Delonte West, Jamario Moon, and Anderson Varejeao? Because that's their starting lineup if LeBron leaves.

Gloria?

You're assuming that if LeBron leaves the Cavs will just give up and stop making moves. Quite the presumption for an owner who has proven to do the opposite.

Ah how convenient this "comparison" can't be found. Still don't understand what that could be based off of. You try the Indians argument again while not addressing my Browns argument which=fail for you.

As I see it the Nets, Wizards, Timberwolves, Warriors, 76ers, Pistons, Kings, Pacers, Bosh-less Raptors and Clippers all have worse rosters than a Bron-less Cavs as of right now. Plus the current roster is used to winning. Jamison, Mo, West, and Varejao are good players. Moon, Gibson, Parker, and Powe are solid role players. Hickson is a good player in the making. Shit who knows? Maybe Telfair will live up to his potential...maybe Eyenga comes over in a year or two and tears it up. Can't say for sure but can't say it won't happen either. Gilbert isn't going to let the Cavs suck. They may no longer be an elite team without LeBron but they'll be a playoff contender and that will bring fans to the arena.

Who wants to pay and see Jamison and Mo and blah blah blah? Like the old saying goes....it's about the name on the front of the jersey that matters....not the name on the back.

As for Stoudemire, most people doubt that offer was ever seriously on the table. More of a smokescreen to lessen the price on Jamison who is by all accounts a very good player who was utilized improperly in the playoffs.


I have to leave for a graduation party but I'm sure there will be more dumbass comments made on unsubstantiated opinions when I get back so I'll deal with them then.....peace for now.

1. Cavs were last in attendance the year before they drafted LeBron.

2. Cleveland isn't exactly swimming in money, and you're telling me, people are going to shell out crazy money (and everything about going to NBA games is crazy money) to go see a 30-40 win team without LeBron James? THEIR BEST PLAYER WILL BE 34 YEAR OLD ANTWAN JAMISON.

3. If LBJ leaves, the Cavs franchise will lose about 150 million dollars in value. The crazy show they put on now? Yea, not the same when Antwan Jamison is your best player.

4. Merchandise sales will plummet. I see Cavaliers jerseys all over now, and guess what? They're all LeBrons. Don't see too many Mo Williams #2's walking around.

...........................

I understand you're a fan of your squad, and krazie, I ain't got much of a problem with you, but c'mon. Nobody is going to support a middling NBA team in Cleveland, especially when that middling team doesn't employ LeBron James.

You're assuming that if LeBron leaves the Cavs will just give up and stop making moves. Quite the presumption for an owner who has proven to do the opposite.

Dan Gilbert is not going to pay the luxury tax for a Lebronless roster that struggles to make the playoffs. He is going to lose money on the team this year because of the early playoff exit and the monster payroll from what I read, and if a title is not a realistic option you can expect the wallet to dramatically close.

The value of the franchise will drop by a minimum of $100 million if Lebron leaves, anyone expecting Gilbert to operate the same way is delusional.

The Cavs made season ticket holders lock in for next year already, so it won't be next year the problem happens if Lebron leaves. It is the year after, when I bet as much as half the fan base would drop their season tickets with no Lebron.

Factoring in the decline in the franchise value along with a dramatic falloff in season ticket holders severely hurting revenue and it is a recipe for disaster. Ask Larry Dolan how well it works when fans stop coming to games because they are demoralized. Gilbert didn't get rich by running businesses at a net operating loss on a consistent basis, and the Cavs will be no different if Lebron leaves.

I do not agree with hardly anything Sage is saying... but I will agree that the franchise is in big trouble without Lebron/a superstar to replace him. The franchise was in trouble beforehand and the punch in the stomach that a Lebron exit would cause could be devastating. I see the Cavaliers/the Q looking a lot like Progressive Field if Lebron leaves. Let's face it, excluding the Browns... Cleveland fans are bandwagon fans for the most part.

Could be devastating?

And guess what, the bear does shit in the woods.

^^^ I agree.

I have been a fan since the cavs were created. I will continue to be a fan of the cavs with or without LBJ. I have never seen Lebron play live.... but I am still a "fan." I also like the Indians and the Browns, and I do not get to many games, but I am still a fan. I may not be the best at supporting my teams at the gate (work and family #1), but I am still a diehard fan. I just bought my Titleist/Indians hat a couple days ago. Anyone can wear clothing/hats supporting a team at the top, I prefer to do it while they are at the bottom... a true Cleveland fan's comfort zone... LOL . I will support the Cavs with/without Mr. James.

I saw many, many games live during the incredible Stepian years while attending Kent... can we ever be that bad again.... # 1 draft choice for Don Ford? I do not think we can ever be that bad, but the crowds might be the same.

I will still love the cavs.

Reghi had Windhorst on this afternoon. Sounds like a power struggle, pure & simple. Ferry wanted control over all decisions (selection of the roster, next head coach, etc) and Gilbert wasn't down with that. Even in his presser, Gilbert said that Grant wouldn't make that call. They do it by "jury."

This clears the way for Lebron to select his next head coach (if he stays). Ferry wouldn't have been agreeable to a Calipari, Avery Johnson, etc.

Worst thing they can do is allow LBJ to pick his coach. That'd be the most moronic move in history, seconded only by if they choose Callipari.

I wouldn't say Cleveland fans are bandwagon, but I mean--hell, if money is tight, why the hell would you pay exuberant prices to go see an inferior product you can watch on TV for free?

$$$$ > all, unfortunately.

Sage;379456 wrote:Worst thing they can do is allow LBJ to pick his coach. That'd be the most moronic move in history, seconded only by if they choose Callipari.

I wouldn't say Cleveland fans are bandwagon, but I mean--hell, if money is tight, why the hell would you pay exuberant prices to go see an inferior product you can watch on TV for free?

$$$$ > all, unfortunately.

Agreed but I think Gilbert will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to make Lebron happy, right move or not. Wasn't a huge fan of Ferry but if Gilbert starts putting too much of his fingers in the pie, it wreaks of owner trying to play "fantasy basketball" to me ala Mark Cuban.

As far as attending games, I'm the same as a few on here. Been a fan since 74-75' but haven't seen a game since it was Gund Arena and Brad Daugherty was matched up against Manute Bol. Remember seeing Artis Gilmore and the Spurs play against World B. Free in Richfield. I too can't see anyone paying good money to go see a Cavs game (if LBJ leaves) or a Tribe game.

I trust Gilbert the most out of any of that staff, he knows what he's doing. If Lebron leaves, everything is bust, so I think Gilbert is doing whatever he can to convince GOAT to stay.

Sleeper, when you say, "GOAT" what is LeBron the Greatest of? PER?

GOAT player...not sure what the confusion is about.

Rings are team awards, come up with a new argument--that one has been had time and time again and your side has no argument.

I recently heard a comment that I think is pretty accurate when describing the Kobe/Lebron debate. When asked "who would you rather have, Lebron or Kobe?" the person answered "I'll take Lebron for the first 44 minutes of the game but Kobe for the last 4."

Sage;379481 wrote:Sleeper, when you say, "GOAT" what is LeBron the Greatest of? PER?

I still feel Lebron is the greatest to have ever played, I don't really understand how you can watch him play and not be in complete awe of his capabilities.

BR1986FB;379496 wrote:I recently heard a comment that I think is pretty accurate when describing the Kobe/Lebron debate. When asked "who would you rather have, Lebron or Kobe?" the person answered "I'll take Lebron for the first 44 minutes of the game but Kobe for the last 4."

Stupidest thing I've ever heard. This is seriously something that is so played up by ESPN and people have been so brainwashed by their shit.

Not to mention, even with that bullshit line of thinking you answered the question--it's LeBron in overwhelming fashion. 44 minutes>4 minutes.

SQ_Crazies;379515 wrote:Stupidest thing I've ever heard. This is seriously something that is so played up by ESPN and people have been so brainwashed by their shit.

Not to mention, even with that bullshit line of thinking you answered the question--it's LeBron in overwhelming fashion. 44 minutes>4 minutes.

The POINT of the persons comment is that Kobe is a cold hearted ruthless "killer" when it's "go time" and Lebron is NOT which I agree with 1000%.

We REALLY don't need to start this tired debate AGAIN. When championships are on the line, Kobe will cut off his teammates nuts if they don't step up to another level. Lebron just wants to be their "buddy" so he won't do anything but mope after the fact (loss).

I have NO doubt that Lebron is the greater physical specimen and better OVERALL player than Kobe but regardless of ANY stats you or anyone else wants to post, championships on the line, I want Kobe. He get as badass as he needs to. Lebron won't.

You've been on this ESPN kick for awhile now mang. Maybe, just maybe, these people are thinking this stuff on their own? Maybe ESPN has nothing to do with it? A person may or may not need ESPN's help to let them know that Kobe is a clutch closer. Seems like any time somebody says something you don't argree with or stupid, you use the ESPN card. Maybe people should start using the ESPN card on you for some of your crazy comments/predictions. Maybe it was ESPN that made you think Boston was done and that Cleveland was so good. See how dumb that sounds when it's directed at you?

I think Lebron gets a bad rap for not being a closer, however, it's not debatable who the best closer in the game is. Kobe is one of the few that can literally turn it up a notch with the game on the line.

As for attendance numbers, here's a link:

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/teamatt.htm?tm=cle&lg=n

All those diehard Cavs fans who root for the name on the front of the jersey were in full force before Lebron.


BTW, this isn't 1940. More people root for a specific player as much as the name on the front of the jersey. The media hypes these guys up so much that fans buy more into the individuals than the team.

That's why ESPN/ABC/TNT always puts Cleveland and LA on National TV during the regular season, it's because of Lebron and Kobe. People tune in to watch Lebron, whether it's some guy in Texas, or someone like me in Columbus. If Lebron's not around next year, you probably won't see me watching more than a couple Cavs games all year.

jpake1;379521 wrote:You've been on this ESPN kick for awhile now mang. Maybe, just maybe, these people are thinking this stuff on their own? Maybe ESPN has nothing to do with it? A person may or may not need ESPN's help to let them know that Kobe is a clutch closer. Seems like any time somebody says something you don't argree with or stupid, you use the ESPN card. Maybe people should start using the ESPN card on you for some of your crazy comments/predictions. Maybe it was ESPN that made you think Boston was done and that Cleveland was so good. See how dumb that sounds when it's directed at you?

I NEVER watch ESPN (I know you weren't referring to me). I may catch about 20 minutes of Mike & Mike on my way into work and when they start talking about Lebron I switch the channel because it's pretty obvious that Greenburg wants him to leave Cleveland. I catch some of WKNR on the way home before I lose the signal and those guys are local ESPN so they are mostly homers.

I'll be the FIRST to admit that I wave the Cleveland flag in ALL sports and I'm a "homer." There's a difference though. I'm not a BLIND HOMER. My head is not so far up Lebron's ass that when I pull it out I have a #23 tattooed on my forehead. I see him as potentially one of the greatest ever but I also see that he doesn't have the cutthroat mentality that Kobe does. I DON'T like Kobe but I'll give credit where it's due and call a spade a spade. Kobe is the #1 guy in the league when it's "go time."

Who da thunk it.
I can't believe this.

BR1986FB;379496 wrote:I recently heard a comment that I think is pretty accurate when describing the Kobe/Lebron debate. When asked "who would you rather have, Lebron or Kobe?" the person answered "I'll take Lebron for the first 44 minutes of the game but Kobe for the last 4."

I don't know about that. I would have taken Kobe all 48 the last 2 games against the Celtics.

Wow, I cannot believe how people just twist things to fit their arguments. You're comparing pre-LeBron numbers for attendance and such to try and prove your point when the franchise has changed DRAMATICALLY since then.

I'll give you an example to help your minds wrap around it. I took my 11 year old nephew to game 1 of the playoffs this year against Boston. This was the first pro game he's ever been to (not pro basketball, the first professional sports game he has ever been to). I took him to the pre game kids zone out in the plaza, I got him a Shaq jersey at the team shop (what he wanted, he didn't want LeBron for all those who are saying every Cavs jersey is a LeBron jersey). You know what happened? He had a blast. He's all about the Cavs now. He can't wait to go to another game. That's the new generation that's growing up CAVS fans. In the 60s it was the Browns, which is why still today you see so many Browns fans despite their record. I'm sure many of you have similar stories when you were a kid (except for you who root for teams thousands of miles away and didn't get to see a live home game as a kid, sorry you'll never get to experience that kind of joy.) My first pro game was a Cavs game the first year at the Gund. From then on the Cavs were my favorite pro team.

I'm sorry but you can't compare pre-LeBron numbers and try to say that's how it's going to be afterwards for two reasons:

1. The entire franchise has changed since then. The arena has been upgraded. The Cavs have excited Cleveland for long enough that they won't just be abandoned. The owner, despite your OPINION of what he's going to do if LeBron leaves is still the best owner Cleveland has EVER had. The colors changed, the team changed, the expectations changed, it was a completely different Cavs team.



Since most of you haters probably don't know your Cavs history let me take you to school......The Cavs have only been around about 40 years (which is 20 less years than the Browns and not counting the other pro football teams in Cleveland and 70 less years than the Indians which doesn't count their other pro baseball teams as well). The Cavs played the majority of their early years in a place called the "Richfield Coliseum". For those of you that don't know (and judging by the idiocy of your posts I would say most of you) this was an arena built essentially in the middle of nowhere in Richfield, OH. The idea was that it being located there would draw from the areas of Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, and other cities that were nearby. Roughly 1 million people lived within an hours' drive at the time of construction. During this time the Cavs experienced very good attendance and even had some pretty good teams. Over 20 years they were able to establish a consistent fan base that attends games. Eventually plans came about to build a new arena in downtown Cleveland. Coupled with the deterioration of the Ohio economy suddenly you are completely changing the client base for your games. The people from Akron, Youngstown, etc. are not making the longer drive to downtown Cleveland as much as they did when the arena was in Richfield. Also, you are relying on the immediate Cleveland area....not exactly the richest area, so they can't buy tickets to overpriced NBA games, to fill your arena. Coupled with the failures of the team this led to poor attendance. Enter LeBron James, local superstar who people flock to see. For SEVEN years people are going to Cavs games, pretty much selling out the arena, and willing to spend money on a team willing to spend money to win. Let's say LeBron leaves.....do all the fans that came to Cavs games go with him? NO.......A lot do, I will admit that. But to say that the Q will be half full is based on absolutely NOTHING. To say that the Cavs will struggle to win 30-40 games is based on absolutely NOTHING. To say that Dan Gilbert will no longer try to win games is based on absolutely NOTHING. See my point?

I still laugh at those bringing up the Indians and how Cleveland is a bandwagon city (despite the die hard attitude towards the Browns which everyone on here CONVENIENTLY avoids as to avoid making themselves look like a complete ass.) The difference between the Indians and Cavs is that the owner of the Cavs tries to win games. Is the drop in attendance for Indians games attributed to the lack of winning? or the fact that the front office traded 2 Cy Young Winners in back to back seasons (unprecedented in the history of the game) and an all star catcher? Or refusing to shell out the dough to re-sign all stars/hall of famers like Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, and Albert Belle? I'm thinking the latter folks. Not to mention you're comparing a sport that's during the spring/summer (lots of alternative options) to a sport in the winter (nothing to fucking do).....you're comparing a stadium that seats 45,000 to an arena that seats 20,000.


My favorite argument though is the one about "well well but tha cavs won't bees on the national tv anymore withouts lebron!!!!!" What in the FUCK does that have to do with how many fans are showing up to the game. Guess what? The LeBron fan in texas isn't contributing much to the Cavs franchise other than maybe a LeBron jersey and a hat. It's the guy in Cleveland, or Akron, or Columbus who is actually reasonably able to attend Cavs games......and guess what geniuses, FSO is STILL going to carry EVERY Cavs game. So the people who actually matter (those in Ohio) will still be able to see as many Cavs games as they want. Congrats dynasty if we won't be seeing you catching more than a couple games a year next year (if LeBron goes)....we know you're not a fan so why does it matter? The fans will still watch. The fans will still go to the game because the team WILL be competitive and the games WILL still be exciting in the entertainment aspect.

I'm done with this topic because it's seriously like talking to a brick wall. You just try to pass off half assed opinions as facts and convince yourselves that they are facts. The Cavs aren't leaving Cleveland. People will still go to games next year with or without LeBron. The Cavs will be competitive with or without LeBron. That's it....