I Wear Pants;378617 wrote:We haven't murdered any Cubans but boy oh boy have we murdered some Iraqis.

I am sure Feisal Abdul Rauf would endorse your description

superman;378594 wrote:cut ties != murder

You are totally not understanding what I am saying. We reacted to something that a country did because they were in bed with our enemy. THAT is the thinking.

isadore;378681 wrote:I am sure Feisal Abdul Rauf would endorse your description

Cool. Don't know who that dude is but can't be too bad if he agrees with me.

I Wear Pants;378777 wrote:Cool. Don't know who that dude is but can't be too bad if he agrees with me.

You are obviously in a high degree of agreement with Mr. Feisel Abdul Ruaf who wants to build the mosque at the site of a mass murder of Americans. He considers us as in part responsible far the attack. According to him America is an accessory to the attack.
http://www.hudsonny.org/2010/05/mosq...uslim-view.php

We are not an accessory to the attack but in some ways we shaped the events that led to the attack. Does that justify that terrible day? Nope. But understanding that some things the the US did may have led to the passionate resentment that these people had against us is not the same as saying it was our fault.

And I don't like you presuming to know my opinion. I don't say that I know you are in a high degree of agreement with the KKK because you seemingly hate Muslims.

I Wear Pants;378783 wrote:We are not an accessory to the attack but in some ways we shaped the events that led to the attack. Does that justify that terrible day? Nope. But understanding that some things the the US did may have led to the passionate resentment that these people had against us is not the same as saying it was our fault.

And I don't like you presuming to know my opinion. I don't say that I know you are in a high degree of agreement with the KKK because you seemingly hate Muslims.

lol, talk about trying to have it both ways. when you described the efforts of our service people to liberate Iraq from Sadaam Hussein as murders, when you labelled our servicepeople who sacrificed their lives as murderers, you definitely did some identifying.
"We haven't murdered any Cubans but boy oh boy have we murdered some Iraqis."

You try to rationalize and apologize for the killers of thousands of Americans at the Towers, the Pentagon and Shankskill Pennsylvania. There is no excuse for what was done on 9/11, none and no accessories who are not Muslim. The perpetrators should rot in hell. And no matter what you imply it makes no difference to the fact that from its origin with Muhammed nearly 1400 years has a permanent imprint of violence.

I Wear Pants;378783 wrote:We are not an accessory to the attack but in some ways we shaped the events that led to the attack. Does that justify that terrible day? Nope. But understanding that some things the the US did may have led to the passionate resentment that these people had against us is not the same as saying it was our fault.

And I don't like you presuming to know my opinion. I don't say that I know you are in a high degree of agreement with the KKK because you seemingly hate Muslims.

Most people don't want to admit that the US, while being the greatest country in the world, has its flaws and is not held in the highest esteem in some countries around the world.

isadore;378796 wrote:lol, talk about trying to have it both ways. when you described the efforts of our service people to liberate Iraq from Sadaam Hussein as murders, when you labelled our servicepeople who sacrificed their lives as murderers, you definitely did some identifying.
"We haven't murdered any Cubans but boy oh boy have we murdered some Iraqis."

You try to rationalize and apologize for the killers of thousands of Americans at the Towers, the Pentagon and Shankskill Pennsylvania. There is no excuse for what was done on 9/11, none and no accessories who are not Muslim. The perpetrators should rot in hell. And no matter what you imply it makes no difference to the fact that from its origin with Muhammed nearly 1400 years has a permanent imprint of violence.

I don't really see where anyone is rationalizing and apologizing for the perpetrators of 9/11. Could you please provide a quote from someone that is, because if that is the case, I would also lash out at them. I think you are mistaken waht Pants is saying. The people of Iraq that have become casualities of war had about as much to do with 9/11 as people from Austrailia.

dwccrew;379497 wrote:Most people don't want to admit that the US, while being the greatest country in the world, has its flaws and is not held in the highest esteem in some countries around the world.



I don't really see where anyone is rationalizing and apologizing for the perpetrators of 9/11. Could you please provide a quote from someone that is, because if that is the case, I would also lash out at them. I think you are mistaken waht Pants is saying. The people of Iraq that have become casualities of war had about as much to do with 9/11 as people from Austrailia.

Someone for you to denounce for rationalizing, providing mitigation for our attackers, well how about Feisel Abdul Rauf, the leader of the Mosque committee
Rauf is a on record telling CNN, right after the 9/11 attacks, "U.S. policies were an accessory to the crime that happened. We [the U.S.] have been an accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. Osama bin Laden was made in the USA."“
http://www.hudsonny.org/2010/05/mosq...uslim-view.php

I sure wouldn’t want a guy who said that have his Mosque and complex on ground zero.

Then we have the statements of I WEAR PANTS on Al Qeada and its efforts.

"Nobody Is Winning In Afghanistan"--General McChrystal
05.17.2010 10:14 PM

I WEAR PANTS
Yes, they think that the terrorists will forever hate us for being American.

Which is a fucked up world view to have (another reason we're looked down on is our holier than thou attitude towards everyone) and is in all likelihood wrong.

They hate use because we're meddling in affairs that aren't ours to meddle in. We are the closest thing left to imperialists.
05.17.2010 11:42 PM

So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight. We are too large an enemy for almost any single country to fight. Is everyone just supposed to bow to our will then?
And on this thread
His view of American service people efforts in Iraq
“We haven't murdered any Cubans but boy oh boy have we murdered some Iraqis. “

isadore;378796 wrote:lol, talk about trying to have it both ways. when you described the efforts of our service people to liberate Iraq from Sadaam Hussein as murders, when you labelled our servicepeople who sacrificed their lives as murderers, you definitely did some identifying.
"We haven't murdered any Cubans but boy oh boy have we murdered some Iraqis."

You try to rationalize and apologize for the killers of thousands of Americans at the Towers, the Pentagon and Shankskill Pennsylvania. There is no excuse for what was done on 9/11, none and no accessories who are not Muslim. The perpetrators should rot in hell. And no matter what you imply it makes no difference to the fact that from its origin with Muhammed nearly 1400 years has a permanent imprint of violence.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 so...


And another thing. We are the closest thing left to imperialists. I stand by that because it's true.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that some of the policies that the United States has taken abroad have caused outrage and anger by those effected by them which is one of the reasons we are seen in such a negative light by these people. We drive them to distrust and dislike us but then are surprised when they try to hurt us. This doesn't mean that they are in the right, attacking innocent citizens is not acceptable by any means. But it doesn't hurt to understand why we are disliked by some abroad. And it isn't because "they hate us since we're American" or "they hate the freedoms we have" or "they're jealous".

I Wear Pants;379674 wrote:Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 so...


And another thing. We are the closest thing left to imperialists. I stand by that because it's true.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that some of the policies that the United States has taken abroad have caused outrage and anger by those effected by them which is one of the reasons we are seen in such a negative light by these people. We drive them to distrust and dislike us but then are surprised when they try to hurt us. This doesn't mean that they are in the right, attacking innocent citizens is not acceptable by any means. But it doesn't hurt to understand why we are disliked by some abroad. And it isn't because "they hate us since we're American" or "they hate the freedoms we have" or "they're jealous".

So according to what you have to say now, it wasn't nice for those folks to blowup the towers with civilian BUT
the United States is imperialist.
Our troops in Iraq are murderers "“We haven't murdered any Cubans but boy oh boy have we murdered some Iraqis.
and then you give our enemies this unlimited license to use any methods they wish and not be "bad guys", wow.

" So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight. We are too large an enemy for almost any single country to fight. Is everyone just supposed to bow to our will then?"

That kind of negates your comments about how wrong it is to attack civilians on 9/11, a favorite tactic, along with executing American prisoners. But of course in your view they are not bad guys, using those brutal tactics is the only way they have to fight the evil imperialist United States

isadore;379752 wrote:That kind of negates your comments about how wrong it is to attack civilians on 9/11, a favorite tactic, along with executing American prisoners. But of course in your view they are not bad guys, using those brutal tactics is the only way they have to fight the evil imperialist United States

When you consider our eeeeeeevil imperialistic ways (IE: capitalism, western culture, money, military power, Judeo-Christian values, etc.) the beheadings, executions, hijacking airliners full of innocent people, suicide bombings, etc. used by those poor innocent people who practice the peaceful religion known as Islam are all justified according to the tolerant left.

For liberals the end always justifies the means.

So apparently, it is a practice of Islam to build mosques at the sites of significant Muslim victories.

Does anyone REALLY believe that's not what's happening here?

If New Yorkers allow this to go forward, they are beyond stupid and gullible.

believer;379919 wrote:When you consider our eeeeeeevil imperialistic ways (IE: capitalism, western culture, money, military power, Judeo-Christian values, etc.) the beheadings, executions, hijacking airliners full of innocent people, suicide bombings, etc. used by those poor innocent people who practice the peaceful religion known as Islam are all justified according to the tolerant left.

For liberals the end always justifies the means.

How does realizing that we aren't always perfect and being cognizant of the situations that have caused the disdain for the US in the mid-east turn into us thinking the attacks were justified?

I said that the attacks were and still are unacceptable. Learn to read.

And it's the conservatives who believe in the end justifies the means. The Iraq war is a great example of that. So is water boarding and the torture we engaged in. And things like the Patriot Act.

So apparently Muslims are only allowed to place their places of worship at places that you guys deem okay (which probably means out of the country) or else it's some conspiracy to spread terrorism or celebrate Muslim victories. Are those foil hats comfortable?

I Wear Pants;380184 wrote:How does realizing that we aren't always perfect and being cognizant of the situations that have caused the disdain for the US in the mid-east turn into us thinking the attacks were justified?

I said that the attacks were and still are unacceptable. Learn to read.

And it's the conservatives who believe in the end justifies the means. The Iraq war is a great example of that. So is water boarding and the torture we engaged in. And things like the Patriot Act.

So apparently Muslims are only allowed to place their places of worship at places that you guys deem okay (which probably means out of the country) or else it's some conspiracy to spread terrorism or celebrate Muslim victories. Are those foil hats comfortable?

Gosh a Mosque lead by a man who think that the United States were accessories in the 9/11 attack.
But of course we have your view of us and our enemies.
"" So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight. We are too large an enemy for almost any single country to fight. Is everyone just supposed to bow to our will then?"

Let me tell you something chief, people who kill Americans, civilians or servicepeople are the bad guys.

The people who want to build this mosque never killed anyone.

Edit: So you're saying you wouldn't try to repel an invading arming who after defeating our military decided to occupy the country and rebuild it in their image?

I Wear Pants;380207 wrote:The people who want to build this mosque never killed anyone.

Edit: So you're saying you wouldn't try to repel an invading arming who after defeating our military decided to occupy the country and rebuild it in their image?

The man who want to build the considers the United States an accessory in the attack. Providing mitigation for the murderers.
As opposed to you I dont see the American army as evil, but as a force for good in the worlld. And I dont see the defenders of Nazii states, Fascist states, communist states, Baathist states, taliban states as good guys, you do.

I'd like you to show me where I said the Nazis and Communists were the good guys. Nice try putting words in my mouth.

So you are saying that the United States never does things that are wrong and always does the right things and in no way contributed at all to the disdain that the middle east has for our country? You think that they just started hating us one day because they were bored or something?

I Wear Pants;380220 wrote:I'd like you to show me where I said the Nazis and Communists were the good guys. Nice try putting words in my mouth.

So you are saying that the United States never does things that are wrong and always does the right things and in no way contributed at all to the disdain that the middle east has for our country? You think that they just started hating us one day because they were bored or something?

defending their countries, against the powerful United States. Or is it just the Baathist, Al Qeada, the Taliban who you see as good guys.
They are people fighting to protect evil regimes. I find it interesting that you consider Americans bad guys, the killing of American servicepeople as good and justified.

isadore;380222 wrote:defending their countries, against the powerful United States. Or is it just the Baathist, Al Qeada, the Taliban who you see as good guys.
They are people fighting to protect evil regimes. I find it interesting that you consider Americans bad guys, the killing of American servicepeople as good and justified.

I'd really like it if you stopped putting words in my mouth. Unless you want me to start putting words in yours. I'll do that in the next paragraph as a taste test to see if you want to keep this up.

Wow, you think it's okay for the United States to engage in torture and invade any country that we so please? Crazy. I also find it strange that you don't believe in religious freedom and that you seem to have a distinct distaste for Arabic people. Another interesting thing about you is that you love war and get very upset when people mention that perhaps war is a bad thing because many people die and even more have their lives negatively influenced by them. Apparently that gives you some sort of pleasure.

Now that that's over can we please actually debate our opinions without projecting insane things onto the other person?

The United States isn't evil and 9/11 wasn't justified. At all. But we have made policy decisions that have helped foster the negative opinion of the United States in the middle east and abroad.

If you use complete quotes, be my guest. Quotes like this one: "So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight. We are too large an enemy for almost any single country to fight. Is everyone just supposed to bow to our will then?"
You say that people fighting and killing Americans are not necessarily the bad guys. That these people killing Americans may be good guys. And they may use "gorilla tactics" what is that throwing feces at us. And their "brutal tactics", mass murdering civilians, suicide bombers, executing American prisoners are ok.
To me, but not to you, anyone who kills American civilians or servicepeople are bad guys and they should rot in hell.

Oh clever. You made fun of me for making a spelling error. I'm not making fun of you for not knowing how to use the quote system. Weird right?

And you still haven't answered my question. Do you think that the United States can take or has ever taken policy actions that could be considered "wrong"?

Answer me this, how should someone (for the sake of this example we'll assume that this person or their family is not involved with any extremist groups) who lives in Iraq react if they are out getting food or working or doing whatever and when they come home they find their entire family dead from an American bomb. How is this person to react? Are they supposed to see our soldiers as liberators still? Is this person wanting to fight American soldiers not at least somewhat of a rational response?

go ahead, I lack technical knowledge and make spelling and grammatical errors. Have at them. I don't think confusing gorilla and guerilla would be considered a spelling error.
People who execute American prisoners are not good people. People who kill American servicepeople are not good people. Hopefully all those trying to do these things are killed before they can be successful.
People who fly planes into the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, or highjack American plane that crashes at Shankskill Pennsyvania are not good people.
Do you disagree?

And a person who considers the United States an accessory to the 9/11 bombing should not be allowed to build a mosque on ground zero.

Still didn't answer any of my questions.

How should someone (for the sake of this example we'll assume that this person or their family is not involved with any extremist groups) who lives in Iraq react if they are out getting food or working or doing whatever and when they come home they find their entire family dead from an American bomb. How is this person to react? Are they supposed to see our soldiers as liberators still? Is this person wanting to fight American soldiers not at least somewhat of a rational response?

see above that is my answer to your questions.
Do you agree or disagree with my statement?

So in the scenario I outlined it is not reasonable for the person to hate the US. If you went off to work tomorrow and some country bombed the shit out of your house and killed your family because they thought that Obama was an oppressive ruler and then occupied the US you would be okay with it?

And you didn't answer the questions. How is an Iraqi person supposed to feel and react when their entire family has been killed by our country? Is it unreasonable for that person to hate us?

I do agree with you that the people who coordinated, planned, and carried out 9/11 are not good people. Not at all. The people who behead journalists and soldiers aren't good people either.

But does the same thing apply to the servicemen of ours who mistreated and tortured prisoners at Abu Ghraib?

Everything isn't so cut and dry.