Odd that so many American Muslims, who must, based on what he is saying, be completely committed to the establishment of a society based only on Mohammed's teachings...would sign up to fight and die for a country and way of life that is, if he is to be believed, completely against what is the ultimate goal of Muslims in the United States.

Many Muslims have fought and died in the U.S. Armed Forces protecting that "American constitutional democracy."

Yet, they don't believe in it and want it to go away? And are just a part in this grand conspiracy to take over the United States from within? Is there death meant to be some sort of diversion?

Doesn't make much sense.

I see nothing in that article that supports what he is saying is going to happen. Trying to extrapolate the evidence he presents there to reprsent the entire goal of Islam in the West is a joke.

Would make for an interesting novel, i guess. But, that is all it is.

cbus4life;377888 wrote:Ok...but, Al-Quaeda does not, by any means, equal Islam.

Millions upon millions of Muslims are non-violent.

Your entire argument is flawed because you can't get it through your head that Al-Quaeda does not represent even a fraction of Islam, in the grand scheme of things.

And, i find it funny that everyone bitches about Muslims not denouncing terrorism...and completley ignore the links provided in various places with countless examples of Muslims denouncing terrorism.

Hell, the guy sponsoring this mosque is one of those people.

More than not even a fraction, wrong, actually a fraction with a rather large numerator and small denominator. They have allies around the world
Partial list the Taliban and
Armed Islamic Group
Salafist Group for Call and Combat and the Armed Islamic Group
Egyptian Islamic Jihad (Egypt)
Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya
Jamaat Islamiyya
The Libyan Islamic Fighting Group
Bayt al-Imam (Jordan)
Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Muhammad (Kashmir)
Asbat al Ansar
Hezbollah (Lebanon)
Al-Badar
Harakat ul Ansar/Mujahadeen
Al-Hadith
Harakat ul Jihad
Jaish Mohammed - JEM
Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam
Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Laskar e-Toiba - LET
Moro Islamic Liberation Front (the Philippines)
Abu Sayyaf Group (Malaysia, Philippines)
Al-Ittihad Al Islamiya - AIAI (Somalia)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Islamic Army of Aden (Yemen)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/al-qaida.htm

All naturally attracted together because of the violent nature of Islam from its source Muhammad.

And some comments from good old Feisel Abdul Rauf leader of the movement to put the Mosque at the 9/11 site

“However, Rauf is also on record telling CNN, right after the 9/11 attacks, "U.S. policies were an accessory to the crime that happened. We [the U.S.] have been an accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. Osama bin Laden was made in the USA."“
http://www.hudsonny.org/2010/05/mosque-at-ground-zero-muslim-view.php
"The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets."
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/05/911-mosque-imam-feisal-abdul-rauf-blames-christians-the-us-and-the-west-must-acknowledge-the-harm-th.html
I guess we just got what we deserved based on his view of the world.

isadore;376676 wrote:its alot easier with Muhammed who himself provided personally examples of intolerance and violence.

But you can also point to examples of Muslim conquerors being welcomed and actually treating their cpatives more mercifuly and just than their previous governors had. You can link both religions with terrible acts. What's the point??? You won't prove anything.

The mosque seems like an odd schoice, maybe even kind of random, but the cultural center I can see.

isadore;378129 wrote:More than not even a fraction, wrong, actually a fraction with a rather large numerator and small denominator. They have allies around the world
Partial list the Taliban and
Armed Islamic Group
Salafist Group for Call and Combat and the Armed Islamic Group
Egyptian Islamic Jihad (Egypt)
Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya
Jamaat Islamiyya
The Libyan Islamic Fighting Group
Bayt al-Imam (Jordan)
Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Muhammad (Kashmir)
Asbat al Ansar
Hezbollah (Lebanon)
Al-Badar
Harakat ul Ansar/Mujahadeen
Al-Hadith
Harakat ul Jihad
Jaish Mohammed - JEM
Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam
Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Laskar e-Toiba - LET
Moro Islamic Liberation Front (the Philippines)
Abu Sayyaf Group (Malaysia, Philippines)
Al-Ittihad Al Islamiya - AIAI (Somalia)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Islamic Army of Aden (Yemen)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/al-qaida.htm

All naturally attracted together because of the violent nature of Islam from its source Muhammad.

And some comments from good old Feisel Abdul Rauf leader of the movement to put the Mosque at the 9/11 site

“However, Rauf is also on record telling CNN, right after the 9/11 attacks, "U.S. policies were an accessory to the crime that happened. We [the U.S.] have been an accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. Osama bin Laden was made in the USA."“
http://www.hudsonny.org/2010/05/mosque-at-ground-zero-muslim-view.php
"The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets."
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/05/911-mosque-imam-feisal-abdul-rauf-blames-christians-the-us-and-the-west-must-acknowledge-the-harm-th.html
I guess we just got what we deserved based on his view of the world.

Where does he say we got what we deserved?

And if you actually read about the man, look at what he has written, at other sources, as i've done over the last few days, you'll see he's nothing like the person you're trying to make him out to be, and has not one ounce in common with Al-Queda and the like.

He's spent much of his life trying to IMPROVE relations between Islam and the West, has written extensively about it, etc., and is devoted to ensuring that we are able to live in harmony and peacefully.

Hell, he's an American.

And, of course, don't even both to look at earlier links of the countless Muslims who have denounced terrorism and the actions of those on 9/11. Wouldn't fit with your worldview, so not worth the time.

isadore;378129 wrote:More than not even a fraction, wrong, actually a fraction with a rather large numerator and small denominator. They have allies around the world
Partial list the Taliban and
Armed Islamic Group
Salafist Group for Call and Combat and the Armed Islamic Group
Egyptian Islamic Jihad (Egypt)
Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya
Jamaat Islamiyya
The Libyan Islamic Fighting Group
Bayt al-Imam (Jordan)
Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Muhammad (Kashmir)
Asbat al Ansar
Hezbollah (Lebanon)
Al-Badar
Harakat ul Ansar/Mujahadeen
Al-Hadith
Harakat ul Jihad
Jaish Mohammed - JEM
Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam
Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Laskar e-Toiba - LET
Moro Islamic Liberation Front (the Philippines)
Abu Sayyaf Group (Malaysia, Philippines)
Al-Ittihad Al Islamiya - AIAI (Somalia)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Islamic Army of Aden (Yemen)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/al-qaida.htm

All naturally attracted together because of the violent nature of Islam from its source Muhammad.

And some comments from good old Feisel Abdul Rauf leader of the movement to put the Mosque at the 9/11 site

“However, Rauf is also on record telling CNN, right after the 9/11 attacks, "U.S. policies were an accessory to the crime that happened. We [the U.S.] have been an accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. Osama bin Laden was made in the USA."“
http://www.hudsonny.org/2010/05/mosque-at-ground-zero-muslim-view.php
"The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets."
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/05/911-mosque-imam-feisal-abdul-rauf-blames-christians-the-us-and-the-west-must-acknowledge-the-harm-th.html
I guess we just got what we deserved based on his view of the world.

Fair enough, all terrible groups...but still only representative of an incredibly small number of Muslims when you consider that there are around 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, depending on which source you look at.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, i don't believe that Islam is the violent faith you believe it to be. My studies and readings of the Koran and other texts have not led me to that conclusion. But, your studies and research have obviously led you to believe differently.

And, in regards to the man supporting the mosque and community center...if you actually look at what he's written, and what he has devoted his life to and worked at...you would know that he is a man who has devoted his life to improving relations between Islam and the West.

Been reading this book lately, by the leader of the Cordoba Center...http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Right-Islam-Vision-Muslims/dp/0060750626...seems like an upstanding individual and one who is devoted to peace and tolerance.

cbus4life;377957 wrote:Odd that so many American Muslims, who must, based on what he is saying, be completely committed to the establishment of a society based only on Mohammed's teachings...would sign up to fight and die for a country and way of life that is, if he is to be believed, completely against what is the ultimate goal of Muslims in the United States.

Many Muslims have fought and died in the U.S. Armed Forces protecting that "American constitutional democracy."

Yet, they don't believe in it and want it to go away? And are just a part in this grand conspiracy to take over the United States from within? Is there death meant to be some sort of diversion?

Doesn't make much sense.

I see nothing in that article that supports what he is saying is going to happen. Trying to extrapolate the evidence he presents there to reprsent the entire goal of Islam in the West is a joke.

Would make for an interesting novel, i guess. But, that is all it is.

1. Lt. Col. Juanita Warman, 55, Havre de Grace, Md.
2. Maj. Libardo Caraveo, 52, Woodbridge, Va.
3. Cpt. John P. Gaffaney, 54, San Diego, Calif.
4. Cpt. Russell Seager, 41, Racine, Wis.
5. Staff Sgt. Justin Decrow, 32, Plymouth, Ind.
6. Sgt. Amy Krueger, 29, Kiel, Wis.
7. Spc. Jason Hunt, 22, Tillman, Okla.
8. Spc. Frederick Greene, 29, Mountain City, Tenn.
9. PFC Aaron Nemelka, 19, West Jordan, Utah
10. PFC Michael Pearson, 22, Bolingbrook, Ill.
11. PFC Kham Xiong, 23, St. Paul, Minn.
12. Pvt. Francheska Velez, 21, Chicago, Ill.
13. Michael G. Cahill, Cameron, Texas [civilian
http://www.examiner.com/x-12837-US-Headlines-Examiner~y2009m11d9-Fort-Hood-shooting-update-Nidal-Malik-Hassan-victims-and-memorial-videos
Specialist Jason D. Hunt, 22, of Frederick, Oklahoma, joined the military three years ago. "And when his two-year commitment was finished, he re-enlisted, right in the middle of the Iraq desert on his 21st birthday."
Sergeant Amy Krueger, 29, of Kiel, Wisconsin. The Times writes, "Sgt. Amy Krueger was from a smaall town, and joined the Army shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, a few years after graduating from high school. Sergeant Krueger 'was a feisty young lady who wouldn't back down from anything,' said Faye Billmann, an English teacher at Kiel High School."
Pfc. Aaron Thomas Nemelka (19) had been planning to propose to his girlfriends next month before deploying for Iraq or Afghanistan in January, relatives told The Salt Lake Tribune and The Deseret news. They said that Private Nemelka, who was an Eagle Scout, had been training to dispose of munitions.
Captain Russell Seager, 51, of Racine, Wisconsin was a registered nurse and was on his way to Iraq to help soldiers struggling with post-traumatic stress disorder.
Specialist Kham Xiong, 23, of St. Paul. From the Times: "Specialist Xiong, who has three young children, had moved his family to Texas while he prepared to deploy overseas."
Lieutenant Colonel Juanita Warman, 55, of Independence, Missouri. The Times reports that Lt. Col. Warman "followed in the footsteps of her father and grandfather when she joined the armed forces, her sister, Margaret Yaggie, said."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/06/fort-hood-victims-names_n_348250.html
By Nidal Malik Hassan

killed Pvt. William Long, 23,
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=7730637&page=1
By Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad

Capt. Christopher Scott Seifert, 27, of Easton, Pa

By Asan Akbar
does that make any sense.

cbus4life;378175 wrote:Fair enough, all terrible groups...but still only representative of an incredibly small number of Muslims when you consider that there are around 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, depending on which source you look at.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, i don't believe that Islam is the violent faith you believe it to be. My studies and readings of the Koran and other texts have not led me to that conclusion. But, your studies and research have obviously led you to believe differently.

And, in regards to the man supporting the mosque and community center...if you actually look at what he's written, and what he has devoted his life to and worked at...you would know that he is a man who has devoted his life to improving relations between Islam and the West.

claiming the United States is an accessory to the 9/11 attack would hardly seem like away to bring about reconciliation

I can't make any comment on that quote and don't like it, but, i've formed an opinion of him based on other exploration and reading since i heard about this story. And i have a very positive view.

Hell, the book i just linked is all about reconciliation and building a world where it is possible for a new "Cordoba" to emerge. Cordoba having been, at one point, the posterchild for religious tolerance, where mosques and cathedrals were able to exist side-by-side.

The name alone for this center should be heartening, as it is meant to recall what the goal of the center is...for religious tolerance to emerge and flourish.

Strapping Young Lad;378136 wrote:But you can also point to examples of Muslim conquerors being welcomed and actually treating their cpatives more mercifuly and just than their previous governors had. You can link both religions with terrible acts. What's the point??? You won't prove anything.

The mosque seems like an odd schoice, maybe even kind of random, but the cultural center I can see.

now this is really good news, when the international caliphate is established maybe our new Muslim ruler will be a nice guy. Not to be harsh with his sharia ruling on us poor dimmi. Maybe only pebbles for the stoning.
What we do prove is that Islam was from its originator used and endorsed violence.

cbus4life;378186 wrote:I can't make any comment on that quote and don't like it, but, i've formed an opinion of him based on other exploration and reading since i heard about this story. And i have a very positive view.

Hell, the book i just linked is all about reconciliation and building a world where it is possible for a new "Cordoba" to emerge. Cordoba having been, at one point, the posterchild for religious tolerance, where mosques and cathedrals were able to exist side-by-side.

The name alone for this center should be heartening, as it is meant to recall what the goal of the center is...for religious tolerance to emerge and flourish.

What exists in America is thousand times better,than the Mythical view of a medievil Muslim ruled Spain. Rah, Rah, Rah for the Reconquista.

isadore;378203 wrote:What exists in America is thousand times better,than the Mythical view of a medievil Muslim ruled Spain. Rah, Rah, Rah for the Reconquista.

Lol, i know that. Just saying that the name has some symbolic meaning that is, simply, nice to see, as it evokes a message of tolerance.

But, not sure why i even bother.

it evokes the message if the world was Muslim ruled, everything would be hunky dory for all of us, even we dimmi. I can hardly wait.

Sounds like his idea of reconciliation is Muslims ruling and us bowing down to them.

superman;378284 wrote:Sounds like his idea of reconciliation is Muslims ruling and us bowing down to them.

Where do you get that from?

as compared to a nation where free exercise of religion is written into and guaranteed by the highest document in the land, in cordoba the practice of religion other than ruler's brand of Islam was at his whim.

Did Islam touch you when you were a child isadore?

Islam is no more violent than any other religion.

I Wear Pants;378385 wrote:Did Islam touch you when you were a child isadore?

Islam is no more violent than any other religion.

it was violent from its inception. Execution of prisoners, assassination, genocide modern Islamic terrorists just learn from their Prophet,

Interesting you should make that comment about being touched
"daughter of Abu Bakr and third wife of Muhammad. According to the ahadith in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, and numerous other reports, she married Muhammad at the age of 6 when Muhammad was 53 and they consummated their marriage at the age of 9.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/dictionary/index.html

Blaming America for Bin Laden was pretty evident.
It's like saying "I can't believe the Jews provoked Hitler to do the things he did."

cbus4life;378287 wrote:Where do you get that from?

He tried to blame America for Bin Laden. That is the main basis.

superman;378489 wrote:He tried to blame America for Bin Laden. That is the main basis.

I would think that the U.S. siding with Israel would be fuel for the fire. I mean, the Soviet Union's relationship with Cuba caused us to cut ALL ties.

We cut ties but never murdered 3000 civilians.

superman;378517 wrote:We cut ties but never murdered 3000 civilians.

But Cuba caused us to do it amirite? As in, it was Cuba's fault?

Am I not saying that in general we brought the attack on ourselves, but in the eyes of our attackers, our continued support of their enemy made us the enemy. I mean, that's quite a simple concept.

LJ;378523 wrote:But Cuba caused us to do it amirite? As in, it was Cuba's fault?

Am I not saying that in general we brought the attack on ourselves, but in the eyes of our attackers, our continued support of their enemy made us the enemy. I mean, that's quite a simple concept.

cut ties != murder

We haven't murdered any Cubans but boy oh boy have we murdered some Iraqis.

I Wear Pants;378385 wrote:Did Islam touch you when you were a child isadore?

Islam is no more violent than any other religion.

That- and there will be "peace for our time".

Sincerely,

Neville Chamberlain