ptown_trojans_1;375755 wrote:lol. Let's not go down the Crusades route. No one wins.

Well, technically the Muslims won with the Children's Crusade of 1212 CE.

Just sayin'.

isadore;375760 wrote:Islam, from its very beginning, has been spread by conquest more than any other religion, even Christianity.

Depends. There were actually somewhat violent factions of Judeo-Christian people during the turn of the era (BCE to CE).

isadore;376056 wrote:oh those horrible "patriotic types" where do they get off loving their country.

Since Islam isn't a country, I don't think that's the issue.

I can personally see the emotional reservations of those in that area. After all, though "Islam" did not commit the atrocities on September 11th, those who did claimed that it was in the name of Islam.

I would compare it to, on a lesser scale, the Westboro Baptist Church claiming to do what it is they do in the name of Christianity and God's will. Christianity doesn't picket the soldier funerals. WBC does so in the name of Christianity, though, and that, sadly, may leave a bad taste for Christianity in the mouths of those who are hurt by it.

Getting back to the point of love of country, though, isn't it entirely possible that those desiring to build the Mosque/Community Center/Cultural Center/etc. also love their country, the United States?

sleeper;376674 wrote:A world with violent destructive religions is where I want to be, seeing as how it would degrade the image of it and forcing people to disassociate from being religious. A mosque built a ground zero elevates this tension, so I'm all for it.

Clever, sleeper. I expected nothing less.

you may into be into depends Otrap but I prefer continence. That’s a joke and not a very good one, but it is good to read your thoughts even when they are completely wrong. I must missed in my Bible lessons all the folks Jesus himself killed or ordered killed. Muhammed started violence and killing from the get go, even to the slaughter of Jews. Not his near contemporaries but the found himself. Fascism, Nazism, Militarism, the Far East Co Prosperity sphere were not nations either but belief systems. We fought people who had those beliefs.
If the group that want to build the mosque had true feeling for their fellow Americans they would pick another site.

This is an interesting debate for sure. Living just a stone's throw from the WTC site, here is my take: I can distinguish between a Muslim and a terrorist, so I have no problem with this. I have spoken to many Muslims who are heartbroken by the events of 9-11. I will never forget the look on the face of this Muslim deli owner in Hoboken, NJ (right across from the WTC) on Sept. 11, 2001 ... you could just see the fear and disgust in his eyes, I can never forget that look, its hard to explain.

Let's flip this momentarily: what happens is some nutjob who happens to be Christian crashes a plan into Rockefeller Center. Would you tear down St. Patrick's Cathedral across the street because of his "Christian ties?".

BigAppleBuckeye;376811 wrote:This is an interesting debate for sure. Living just a stone's throw from the WTC site, here is my take: I can distinguish between a Muslim and a terrorist, so I have no problem with this. I have spoken to many Muslims who are heartbroken by the events of 9-11. I will never forget the look on the face of this Muslim deli owner in Hoboken, NJ (right across from the WTC) on Sept. 11, 2001 ... you could just see the fear and disgust in his eyes, I can never forget that look, its hard to explain.

Let's flip this momentarily: what happens is some nutjob who happens to be Christian crashes a plan into Rockefeller Center. Would you tear down St. Patrick's Cathedral across the street because of his "Christian ties?".

Exactly. The conversations and interaction i had with Muslim friends and their parents on 9/11 have left me unable to ever associate the religion as a whole, or really at all, with 9/11.

john hinckley was an individual nutjob but 9/11 was a extensive worldwide conspiracy of that was attacking several vital parts of our nation with the long term goal of establishing a world wide Muslim ruled caliphate.

isadore;376852 wrote:john hinckley was an individual nutjob but 9/11 was a extensive worldwide conspiracy of that was attacking several vital parts of our nation with the long term goal of establishing a world wide Muslim ruled caliphate.

and that has what do to with the mosque in NYC?

if you read through the thread, you will see the authors of the previous comments seemingly dismissing the attack as an abberation, an attack by nutjobs
they were hardly that
they were well organized, well financed, large support network and acting on beliefs of a significant part of the world's Muslims, not just some nutjobs.

isadore;376867 wrote:if you read through the thread, you will see the authors of the previous comments seemingly dismissing the attack as an abberation, an attack by nutjobs
they were hardly that
they were well organized, well financed, large support network and acting on beliefs of a significant part of the world's Muslims, not just some nutjobs.

With ya until you said significant part. They are not a significant part. Far from it. Consider Osama was expelled from Saudi, Sudan and nearly Afghanistan, and no other state supported them openly.

We all fail to see your direct link to 9/11 and the people who will own and operate the mosque. You seem to be equating them the same, when in reality, they are drastically different.

ptown_trojans_1;376875 wrote:With ya until you said significant part.

Beat me to it. This is a claim where proof should be offered per the rules here. Bet he can't do it.

Osama and AlQueda are still with us nine years after they organized the mass murder of Americans. They are sheltered and protected. We brag about killing no.3s but what about 1 and 2. Their movement has supporters and allies world wide among Muslim populations around the world. With supporters and attacks in for example the phillippines, indonesia, india, pakistan, afghanistan, yemen, saudi arabia, kenya, uganda, somalia, sudan, algeria, spain, netherlands and the United States, thats around the world

isadore;376892 wrote:Osama and AlQueda are still with us nine years after they organized the mass murder of Americans. They are sheltered and protected. We brag about killing no.3s but what about 1 and 2. Their movement has supporters and allies world wide among Muslim populations around the world. With supporters and attacks in for example the phillippines, indonesia, india, pakistan, afghanistan, yemen, saudi arabia, kenya, uganda, somalia, sudan, algeria, spain, netherlands and the United States, thats around the world

And there are still Hitler supporters all over the world to this day.

LJ;376900 wrote:And there are still Hitler supporters all over the world to this day.

and the world would be better off without them
But they are not actively trying to kill Americans
Osama and his world wide Islamic folowers are to advance the goal of the international Muslim Caliphate

isadore;376918 wrote:and the world would be better off without them
But they are not actively trying to kill Americans
Osama and his world wide Islamic folowers are to advance the goal of the international Muslim Caliphate

I wouldn't say they are not actively trying to kill Americans. That is just an unsubstantiated claim. I would venture to say that there are numerous murders in the US every year in the name of the Aryan or Nazi movements

do you have a site to back that statement up.
the department of justice has a yearly listing on racial attacks but I dont know if they could tie
and i would be against putting up a nazi meeting hall with a swatika at the towers or next door to the Holocaust Museum in DC or next to the site of any of their murders.
Hitler's adherents killled to spread the swastika world wide,
Al Queda killed to spread the crescent moon world wide
no swastika at auschwitz
no crescent moon at ...

isadore;376933 wrote:do you have a site to back that statement up.
the department of justice has a yearly listing on racial attacks but I dont know if they could tie
and i would be against putting up a nazi meeting hall with a swatika at the towers or next door to the Holocaust Museum in DC or next to the site of any of their murders.
Hitler's adherents killled to spread the swastika world wide,
Al Queda killed to spread the crescent moon world wide
no swastika at auschwitz
no crescent moon at ...

But they are not putting up an Al-Queda center at the WTC, they are putting up a Mosque. It would be like putting up a German Heritage Center next to the Holocaust Museum. See, you saying that all Muslims are terrorists is like saying all Germans are Nazi's

BTW, here is just 1 article of Nazi's actively trying to kill Americans
http://www.blackamericaweb.com/?q=articles/news/moving_america_news/1709

LJ;376935 wrote:But they are not putting up an Al-Queda center at the WTC, they are putting up a Mosque. It would be like putting up a German Heritage Center next to the Holocaust Museum. See, you saying that all Muslims are terrorists is like saying all Germans are Nazi's

BTW, here is just 1 article of Nazi's actively trying to kill Americans
http://www.blackamericaweb.com/?q=articles/news/moving_america_news/1709

I dont imagine a German heritage museum next to the Holocaust museum would go over very well. The Final Solution was not the first time Germans massacred Jews. And 9/11 was not the first time al queda killed Americans

isadore;376957 wrote:I dont imagine a German heritage museum next to the Holocaust museum would go over very well. The Final Solution was not the first time Germans massacred Jews. And 9/11 was not the first time al queda killed Americans

I bet a German Heritage Museum next to the Holocaust museum would be fine. And I take offense to your feelings that all Germans are Nazis. Extreme offense. Most Germans would punch you in the face for even mentioning nazis to them.

LJ;376961 wrote:I bet a German Heritage Museum next to the Holocaust museum would be fine. And I take offense to your feelings that all Germans are Nazis. Extreme offense. Most Germans would punch you in the face for even mentioning nazis to them.

It would bring enormous protest if they did, and the German would be accused of utter insensitivity.
and 70 years ago they were all glad to be nazis then May 8th, 1945, no nazis

isadore;376964 wrote:and 70 years ago they were all glad to be nazis then May 8th, 1945, no nazis

Baldfaced lie. Cite that every German was a happy nazi 70 years ago, or GTFO.

isadore;376964 wrote:It would bring enormous protest if they did, and the German would be accused of utter insensitivity.
and 70 years ago they were all glad to be nazis then May 8th, 1945, no nazis

I doubt it would, seeing as how majorly prevalent German Heritage is in this country. And no, they were not all glad to be Nazi's. A good friend of mine, his father was forced to be in the Hitler Youth. All he tells is horror stories about everyone trying to get out, how his parents hated what Hitler was doing. They followed many of Hitler's social programs until he started attacking everyone and killing jews. My cousin's wife, who is the first in her family to ever live outside of Germany, will attest to this as well. I think I can take their word for it.

Once again, your insinuation that all Germans are Nazi's is absolutely disgusting and I have no desire to ever speak with you again. Your posts will merely be moderated, but you will never see a reply from me again.

good, the German people backed the Nazis,
average Germans were in the einstatzgruppen, were guards at the camps, operated the gas chambers,
average everyday Germans

anecdotal testimony is some of the least valid sources for judging the actions of a nation

isadore is just a really bad troll.

isadore;376975 wrote:good, the German people backed the Nazis,
average Germans were in the einstatzgruppen, were guards at the camps, operated the gas chambers,
average everyday Germans

anecdotal evidence is some of the these valid of all

What?

I Wear Pants;377008 wrote:What?

LOL I know

BigAppleBuckeye;376811 wrote:This is an interesting debate for sure. Living just a stone's throw from the WTC site, here is my take: I can distinguish between a Muslim and a terrorist, so I have no problem with this. I have spoken to many Muslims who are heartbroken by the events of 9-11. I will never forget the look on the face of this Muslim deli owner in Hoboken, NJ (right across from the WTC) on Sept. 11, 2001 ... you could just see the fear and disgust in his eyes, I can never forget that look, its hard to explain.

Let's flip this momentarily: what happens is some nutjob who happens to be Christian crashes a plan into Rockefeller Center. Would you tear down St. Patrick's Cathedral across the street because of his "Christian ties?".

Very Well said IMO.