jmog;1870234 wrote:I was in Italy for 6 weeks once for work, and even with only being there for 6 weeks I learned enough Italian to "get by". If I had been there for anything over a couple months I would have forced myself to learn the language fluently to actively communicate in the country I was "living" in.

So yes, a normal person, going to live in a country, should try to learn that language for their own benefit as well as the others around them.

Most cultures that have moved to the US have done this, they have "assimilated" enough to know the "language" (yes, we know that there is no official language, but when 99% of the people in the country speak that language and every single road sign, airport sign, and government document is in that language, it is a de facto national language).

Also, I get just as "bothered" by dumb Americans that go to Europe or Mexico on vacation and get pissed when no one there speaks English.

I used to be fluent in Spanish (still can read it) and even then when I was in Spain and Mexico I carried a Spanish/English dictionary to help in communication. I had an Italian/English one with me when I was in Italy.

The only time I did not do this was when I was in China and Belgium. Both cases I was only going to be there 1 week, and had interpreters with me.

All of this.

People here bitch about American tourists traveling to other countries and refusing to speak the language for short trips let alone living there for a long period time. I am in the boat that I think it's a bad look. I normally try to speak the language even if I'm butchering it.

If it is frowned upon from this perspective, why not when people live here? Living in the US for 10 years and you still need an interpreter is inexcusable. My aunt (Turkish) self taught herself English just by day to day interactions. Plenty of uber drivers do the same shit.

jmog;1870235 wrote:Probably only in certain pockets of cities like "Chinatown" or "Little Italy" or such could they get by like this, unless they had a child that learned English and spoke for them when they were dealing in public.

North Hill is a pretty "melting pot-esque" place, with my quarter of it being roughly 40% Asian immigrant (mostly Nepali and Karen). The parents indeed don't speak English most of the time, and they seem to just gravitate toward jobs that don't require much speaking. My neighbor across the street, for example, delivers newspapers. He had an interpreter, but other than that, he knows the places marked for getting a paper. Doesn't involve much in the way of communication. Most of the parents in the 30-45 age range learn to speak enough for VERY limited conversations, like asking for directions or official needs.

The grandparents, however, don't know any English. They don't don't speak it in their homes (where, typically, all three generations live). They don't go out much. They have an adult child or interpreter help them with any official documentation. They simply have no need for it in their day-to-day, and as such, they don't pick it up, even casually. And they're certainly not going to just learn it for posterity's sake.

The kids, having come at such an early age, are almost all bilingual or trilingual (most Karen kids who came before they were 10-12 speak the Karen language, Thai, and English fairly fluently). They spend time in school, so it's easy to pick up English, because they're forced to interact with it regularly.

Ultimately, that's what makes a language easy to pick up. Without consistent exposure, you're not going to pick it up much, but we all tend to gravitate toward those we know and can readily communicate with.

The woman in question appears to at least have been able to get to this point. If so, who really cares what language she speaks? I certainly disagree with others having to cater to it, but if she doesn't want to learn English, and she has the necessary accommodations to enable her to not need English, then why should she feel obligated to speak English?

like_that;1870243 wrote:People here bitch about American tourists traveling to other countries and refusing to speak the language for short trips let alone living there for a long period time. I am in the boat that I think it's a bad look. I normally try to speak the language even if I'm butchering it.

I don't think it's a bad look to be a tourist and not be able to speak the language. I do think that anyone, whether here or abroad, who gets touchy about American tourists not learning the language before a trip is being an asshole about it. My in-laws ran into a lot of that in Germany.

like_that;1870243 wrote:If it is frowned upon from this perspective, why not when people live here? Living in the US for 10 years and you still need an interpreter is inexcusable. My aunt (Turkish) self taught herself English just by day to day interactions. Plenty of uber drivers do the same shit.

With day-to-day interactions, it'll happen almost accidentally.

The people who don't learn after extended periods of time are the ones who don't have such day-to-day interactions. And at that point, why does it matter? They're obviously not using it regularly. Why obligate them to know it, you know?

I laughed while reading most of O-Trap's post. Not because he was incorrect (his statements were all facts), but because his phone/computer obviously kept autocorrecting Korea to Karen...

In some cases (many?), immigrants are able to to function without ever learning English because there are large communities of their nationality throughout the US. While they seem to have otherwise assimilated very well, I'd add that isolation is precisely the problem that Europe is having with some of its Muslim neighborhoods.

Sure, we should have more emphasis on second (most likely Chinese) or even third languages in school. But under no circumstances should our schools be "bilingual" or "Spanish". A young kid will learn English very quickly - if it results in them being held back a year that's really no big deal.

More emphasis on Chinese? Which one?

Automatik;1870254 wrote:More emphasis on Chinese? Which one?

Lol. This DACA news has brought out the xenophobia in some people on this site for sure.

Automatik;1870254 wrote:More emphasis on Chinese? Which one?

I don't know, Mandarin or whichever is most common. I assume if you speak Mandarin you can probably understand most dialects.

Also, I think the visual/logic of Chinese or Japanese writing would probably be beneficial for young, developing brains.

O-Trap;1870249 wrote:I don't think it's a bad look to be a tourist and not be able to speak the language. I do think that anyone, whether here or abroad, who gets touchy about American tourists not learning the language before a trip is being an asshole about it. My in-laws ran into a lot of that in Germany.



With day-to-day interactions, it'll happen almost accidentally.

The people who don't learn after extended periods of time are the ones who don't have such day-to-day interactions. And at that point, why does it matter? They're obviously not using it regularly. Why obligate them to know it, you know?

I think it's a bad look if you blatantly don't even try. It's not your country and they aren't catering to you.

I guess personally i just see it as a waste if you live in another country and not try to immerse yourself. This same convo came up this past weekend when my fiancé and I were walking thru Chinatown. They don't need to speak a lick of English if they didn't want to. All of the kids go to school with other asians. That's not taking advantage of the opportunities they have living in NYC.

GOONx19;1870257 wrote:Lol. This DACA news has brought out the xenophobia in some people on this site for sure.

Other than Spock, who are you referring to?

GOONx19;1870257 wrote:Lol. This DACA news has brought out the xenophobia in some people on this site for sure.

Ummm, how is a belief kids should be learning the language of the most populous and likely dominant economic power of the 22nd century xenophobia?

gut;1870262 wrote:Ummm, how does a belief kids should be learning the language of the most populous and likely dominant economic power of the 22nd century xenophobia?

His comment was funny. I don't think that believing American children should learn English is xenophobic. If you don't see that there are xenophobic comments on this thread I can't help you.

GOONx19;1870267 wrote:His comment was funny. I don't think that believing American children should learn English is xenophobic. If you don't see that there are xenophobic comments on this thread I can't help you.

Ahh, I assumed you were referring to my comment since you quoted him.

Xenophobia is a word getting tossed around quite liberally [no pun intended] these days. Economic nationalism is hardly a surprising development with globalization transferring wealth out of OECD nations. The US has clearly assimilated better than Europe, but those concerns aren't really Xenophobia since there is real basis and issues to address. And the economic and structural concerns for poor, uneducated immigrants is also quite real.

A "Muslim ban" is xenophobia. But that is really only one small part of the larger immigration issue. "Crime and drugs" being exported from Mexico is also xenophobia, but that's obviously more marketing pitch than reality.

Developed countries ultimately are struggling to maintain growth because they lack organic population growth - they, or certainly we (the US), HAVE to have immigration to make up for it. The problem is when you struggle to create good, low skill/low education jobs then you end-up importing poverty instead of growth.

like_that;1870259 wrote:I think it's a bad look if you blatantly don't even try. It's not your country and they aren't catering to you.

I mean, if you're getting a translator for the necessary conversations, I don't think it appears like you're expecting them to cater to you, though.

like_that;1870259 wrote:I guess personally i just see it as a waste if you live in another country and not try to immerse yourself. This same convo came up this past weekend when my fiancé and I were walking thru Chinatown. They don't need to speak a lick of English if they didn't want to. All of the kids go to school with other asians. That's not taking advantage of the opportunities they have living in NYC.

If the choice to live in another country is for you, then possibly, yes. But there are other reasons people come. It could be exclusively for the laws (which might explain why someone who wishes to move from China to Chinatown), which they might find more preferable here than there. In the case of refugees, it's usually that either their home and community has been destroyed or that they're being hunted (both are the case with the Karen). Still with others, the purpose might be purely for the benefit of others in the family (such as the patriarchs/grandparents in some of the families), while the desire to leave might not be there for the individual.

We might see it as missing out on some of the advantages, which I would agree with. But it's ultimately not my choice to make, either. As long as I'm not forced to interact with someone who hasn't made accommodations to aid in communication (either learning my language, my learning their language, or one of us having a translator), I don't give a shit if they speak a Khoisan clicking language. It doesn't inconvenience me.

I don't know why we stop at xenophobia. Why not just throw in the usual "racist", "bigot", white supremacist" and all the other deplorable type names a person can think of?
After all, having differing opinions is a hate crime nowdays LOL!

CenterBHSFan;1870303 wrote:I don't know why we stop at xenophobia. Why not just throw in the usual "racist", "bigot", white supremacist" and all the other deplorable type names a person can think of?
After all, having differing opinions is a hate crime nowdays LOL!

Again, while we can point out the hypocrisy/bullshit in Republicans we can go back to 2009-10 when Democrats had nearly a supermajority....and did nothing about immigration.

All the options on the table are largely viewed as political suicide. That's why the Dems instead dove into the Obamacare fiasco. You can bet Obama did DACA in June 2012 because he calculated he needed to turn out those hispanic votes in a few swing states.

I feel like immigration is becoming another wedge issue like guns or abortion, where nothing substantive happens beyond largely meaningless actions on the margin...and a WHOLE LOT of posturing.

gut;1870306 wrote:Again, while we can point out the hypocrisy/bullshit in Republicans we can go back to 2009-10 when Democrats had nearly a supermajority....and did nothing about immigration.

All the options on the table are largely viewed as political suicide. That's why the Dems instead dove into the Obamacare fiasco. You can bet Obama did DACA in June 2012 because he calculated he needed to turn out those hispanic votes in a few swing states.

I feel like immigration is becoming another wedge issue like guns or abortion, where nothing substantive happens beyond largely meaningless actions on the margin...and a WHOLE LOT of posturing.

Everything in a nutshell.

O-Trap;1870280 wrote:I mean, if you're getting a translator for the necessary conversations, I don't think it appears like you're expecting them to cater to you, though.



If the choice to live in another country is for you, then possibly, yes. But there are other reasons people come. It could be exclusively for the laws (which might explain why someone who wishes to move from China to Chinatown), which they might find more preferable here than there. In the case of refugees, it's usually that either their home and community has been destroyed or that they're being hunted (both are the case with the Karen). Still with others, the purpose might be purely for the benefit of others in the family (such as the patriarchs/grandparents in some of the families), while the desire to leave might not be there for the individual.

We might see it as missing out on some of the advantages, which I would agree with. But it's ultimately not my choice to make, either. As long as I'm not forced to interact with someone who hasn't made accommodations to aid in communication (either learning my language, my learning their language, or one of us having a translator), I don't give a shit if they speak a Khoisan clicking language. It doesn't inconvenience me.

You forgot to /con_alma your post.

CenterBHSFan;1870319 wrote:Everything in a nutshell.

Yep. Repubs are unlikely to do much on immigration because anything that brings over 8 Dems is going to lose Repub voters, and then you need more Dems (which will cost more Repubs). Voting or commenting on legislation is going to be a loser for some of Repubs in purple states.

Harry Reid did the same thing when he ran the Senate, protecting the Dems from tough votes. Difference is he worked it to blame the Repubs (easier to do with the liberal media echo chamber).

Now that I think about it, this is an unusually savvy move from Trump. He gets to keep a campaign promise, and deflect any criticism to the Republican Congress whether they act or fail to act.

jmog;1870251 wrote:I laughed while reading most of O-Trap's post. Not because he was incorrect (his statements were all facts), but because his phone/computer obviously kept autocorrecting Korea to Karen...

Nope.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_people

like_that;1870331 wrote:You forgot to /con_alma your post.

If this was him, then the blind squirrel found a nut.

O-Trap;1870337 wrote:Nope.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_people



If this was him, then the blind squirrel found a nut.

Ah, didn't think you would get as detailed as the Kayin state in Myanmar. I saw Karen and figured autocorrect from Korea...

jmog;1870342 wrote:Ah, didn't think you would get as detailed as the Kayin state in Myanmar. I saw Karen and figured autocorrect from Korea...

They're pretty particular about not being associated with the ruling class there. That's who is burning down their villages, or at least it's who was when they escaped.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/bolton-trumps-u-n-speech-the-best-of-his-presidency/


Thanks Don

QuakerOats;1872461 wrote:http://freebeacon.com/national-security/bolton-trumps-u-n-speech-the-best-of-his-presidency/


Thanks Don

John Bolton can GTFO. Idiot has zero fucking credibility.

It was a contradictory speech. You can't preach countries should put their people first, respect sovereignty, and stay out of each other's business and then turn and scream at North Korea and Iran and say we need to work together. Also, it was rambling and just odd in spots. But, he didn't fuck up too bad, so it's a win I guess?

I don't know... didn't watch it. I can't remember a Presidency that I really didn't pay much attention to, disregarding when I was very young, which that would have been Carter. Maybe Bush Sr. but even then I kept up much better than I am with Trump.
I really need to pay more attention, I guess, but I just can't bring myself to the point where I care enough. It's much more interesting to see and hear other people reacting to him than it is to pay attention to him. This place and CNN is a wonderful example of that sort of entertainment!