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WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Jun 23, 2015 1:11pm
No. If I am going to read up on it, it won't be a from the author of a publication in the politics section who clearly feels strongly in one direction.Zoltan;1736793 wrote:Nope. Again read the history lesson I posted.
Fab4Runner
Posts: 6,196
Jun 23, 2015 1:11pm
All of this.lhslep134;1736778 wrote:This is such a dumb argument. It doesn't matter whatsoever what the flag used to stand for. It only matters what it represents now. And now it's the symbol of racist Southerners.
Guess what: the swastika wasn't always a symbol of hate but now it's become one. http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/symbol-swastika-and-its-12000-year-old-history-001312
So Belly, should we allow swastikas to be plastered everywhere because of their peaceful origin? No. So shut the fuck up you hillbilly racist.
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WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Jun 23, 2015 1:12pm
I think I said most of them supported slavery, right?SportsAndLady;1736795 wrote:Dude. What?
Fighting for their rights. Their rights were they wanted slavery (along other things). But they weren't fighting for slavery?
Don't be so dense.
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WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Jun 23, 2015 1:12pm
I also am not opposing it being removed.SportsAndLady;1736795 wrote:Dude. What?
Fighting for their rights. Their rights were they wanted slavery (along other things). But they weren't fighting for slavery?
Don't be so dense.
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Zoltan
Posts: 1,003
Jun 23, 2015 1:20pm
It's not really an opinion article, he just just pulled the written words of the founders and organized them. It's more an oral history.WebFire;1736796 wrote:No. If I am going to read up on it, it won't be a from the author of a publication in the politics section who clearly feels strongly in one direction.
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WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Jun 23, 2015 1:22pm
My view then.Zoltan;1736804 wrote:It's not really an opinion article, he just just pulled the written words of the founders and organized them. It's more an oral history.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/slavery-and-the-civil-war_b_849066.html
BRF
Posts: 8,748
Jun 23, 2015 1:26pm
This old man says it's time to let go of that symbol being on an official flag of a state government.
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WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Jun 23, 2015 1:26pm
This is all I'm trying to say.
Yes, slavery was of course the central point of contention, but as an example of state sovereignty versus federal authority. The war was fought over state's rights and the limits of federal power in a union of states. The perceived threat to state autonomy became an existential one through the specific dispute over slavery. The issue was not slavery per se, but who decided whether slavery was acceptable, local institutions or a distant central government power.
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WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Jun 23, 2015 1:27pm
I agree. Can't think of one single reason anyone would fly it.BRF;1736808 wrote:This old man says it's time to let go of that symbol being on an official flag of a state government.
lhslep134
Posts: 9,774
Jun 23, 2015 1:52pm
You, and the author you cited, apparently are incapable of appreciating the logical underpinnings of fighting for states' rights.WebFire;1736809 wrote:This is all I'm trying to say.
Confederate states did claim the right to secede, but no state claimed to be seceding for that right. In fact, Confederates opposed states’ rights — that is, the right of Northern states not to support slavery.
South Carolina was further upset that New York no longer allowed “slavery transit.” In the past, if Charleston gentry wanted to spend August in the Hamptons, they could bring their cook along. No longer — and South Carolina’s delegates were outraged. In addition, they objected that New England states let black men vote and tolerated abolitionist societies. According to South Carolina, states should not have the right to let their citizens assemble and speak freely when what they said threatened slavery.
Other seceding states echoed South Carolina. “Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world,” proclaimed Mississippi in its own secession declaration, passed Jan. 9, 1861. “Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of the commerce of the earth. . . . A blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.”
The South’s opposition to states’ rights is not surprising. Until the Civil War, Southern presidents and lawmakers had dominated the federal government. The people in power in Washington always oppose states’ rights. Doing so preserves their own.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths-about-why-the-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html
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gut
Posts: 15,058
Jun 23, 2015 2:03pm
Mostly these days I consider it a symbol of Country Music....go to many good country concerts (the good ones, not the modern/neo-country pop crap) and you'll see many confederate flags.
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WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Jun 23, 2015 2:04pm
The problem is, everyone, myself included, look to the opinions and interpretations of others. Your article is even an opinion column, as stated at the top.lhslep134;1736823 wrote:You, and the author you cited, apparently are incapable of appreciating the logical underpinnings of fighting for states' rights.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths-about-why-the-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html
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WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Jun 23, 2015 2:05pm
Interesting point. I think a lot of kids look at the flag as a symbol of rebellion, and probably couldn't even tell you anything about the flag's history.gut;1736831 wrote:Mostly these days I consider it a symbol of Country Music....go to many good country concerts (the good ones, not the modern/neo-country pop crap) and you'll see many confederate flags.
lhslep134
Posts: 9,774
Jun 23, 2015 2:11pm
The following is not an opinion but rather a set of facts that shows an error in logic perpetuated by the author you cite:WebFire;1736833 wrote:The problem is, everyone, myself included, look to the opinions and interpretations of others. Your article is even an opinion column, as stated at the top.
1) Each state, in 1860, has a right to decide if they want slavery
2) Northern states get rid of slavery and craft their own rules prohibiting it
3) Southern states want to maintain slavery and secede in part because the Northern states, per their own state rights, won't allow slaves
4) Southern states cite states' rights as the main reason for secession.
If you can't see the reasoning problem with declaring the basis of secession the protection of states' rights while refusing to acknowledge the rights of other states to prohibit slavery, then your post makes sense.
Belly35
Posts: 9,716
Jun 23, 2015 2:16pm
rmolin73;1736786 wrote:Lol of course Belly would have this stance.
no no no bro Nowhere did I state that I supported or not support this issue with the confederate flag. I presented a different side of the issue whether it is my view or opinion is that of the reader determination and the same same can be made about the confederate flag.
ban guns, ban flags, ban history, ban everything .... But to address the real problem "mental illness" becaue whacko kill and crazy individual harm the innocent is to difficult a task, so take the easy and distraction route that solves nothing. What will be the next reason that some nut job kills..... Tattoos
4cards
Posts: 2,551
Jun 23, 2015 2:24pm
,...If the media didn't have the Confederate Flag issue to run with, it would have turned into a gun issue and banning them nationwide. If not that then it would have been this nut job wasn't raised correctly & why didn't his mental issues get caught and corrected in school so it's the teachers and administration fault. We've become a great nation of finger pointers after the fact.
I agree with some that the flag represents racial attitudes, and to others just a form of rebellion but the bottom line is, it no longer has a place on the lawn at the SC state capital.
I agree with some that the flag represents racial attitudes, and to others just a form of rebellion but the bottom line is, it no longer has a place on the lawn at the SC state capital.
Fab4Runner
Posts: 6,196
Jun 23, 2015 2:24pm
Perhaps Dylann Roof was just a hateful racist, and not a whacko nut job.Belly35;1736843 wrote:no no no bro Nowhere did I state that I supported or not support this issue with the confederate flag. I presented a different side of the issue whether it is my view or opinion is that of the reader determination and the same same can be made about the confederate flag.
ban guns, ban flags, ban history, ban everything .... But to address the real problem "mental illness" becaue whacko kill and crazy individual harm the innocent is to difficult a task, so take the easy and distraction route that solves nothing. What will be the next reason that some nut job kills..... Tattoos
Ytowngirlinfla
Posts: 2,295
Jun 23, 2015 2:41pm
Belly35;1736843 wrote:no no no bro Nowhere did I state that I supported or not support this issue with the confederate flag. I presented a different side of the issue whether it is my view or opinion is that of the reader determination and the same same can be made about the confederate flag.
ban guns, ban flags, ban history, ban everything .... But to address the real problem "mental illness" becaue whacko kill and crazy individual harm the innocent is to difficult a task, so take the easy and distraction route that solves nothing. What will be the next reason that some nut job kills..... Tattoos
It was your opinion Belly. You're just back peddling now.
Automatik
Posts: 14,632
Jun 23, 2015 2:47pm
Was Roof diagnosed as mentally ill?
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 23, 2015 2:47pm
He can't be both?Fab4Runner;1736847 wrote:Perhaps Dylann Roof was just a hateful racist, and not a whacko nut job.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 23, 2015 2:48pm
No. However, someone who kills 9 people can't be mentally healthy in my opinion.Automatik;1736853 wrote:Was Roof diagnosed as mentally ill?
DeyDurkie5
Posts: 11,324
Jun 23, 2015 2:53pm
Man belly is so racist he can't even comprehend that he is, in fact, racist.
Automatik
Posts: 14,632
Jun 23, 2015 2:54pm
You just described most racists.DeyDurkie5;1736858 wrote:Man belly is so racist he can't even comprehend that he is, in fact, racist.
Heretic
Posts: 18,820
Jun 23, 2015 3:13pm
You mean the easy distraction route that leads to you taking a situation where a racist dude who may or may not actually be mentally ill shoots up a church full of black people and turning it into a rant on how black leadership is one of the true racist groups. I must admit, from your long mental illness post on the "church protection" thread after this incident to your posts here, your brain did take a few turns I would not have predicted...Belly35;1736843 wrote:no no no bro Nowhere did I state that I supported or not support this issue with the confederate flag. I presented a different side of the issue whether it is my view or opinion is that of the reader determination and the same same can be made about the confederate flag.
ban guns, ban flags, ban history, ban everything .... But to address the real problem "mental illness" becaue whacko kill and crazy individual harm the innocent is to difficult a task, so take the easy and distraction route that solves nothing. What will be the next reason that some nut job kills..... Tattoos
SportsAndLady
Posts: 35,632
Jun 23, 2015 3:17pm
Anybody who murders 9 innocent people is not mentally stable.Fab4Runner;1736847 wrote:Perhaps Dylann Roof was just a hateful racist, and not a whacko nut job.
There are a lot of racist people out there but that doesn't mean they're going to murder innocent black people.
The mentally ill ones are the ones that do.