I Wear Pants;1681863 wrote:We're a nation of laws for plebs like us, not for government members, police, or the wealthy. They have entirely different outcomes when it comes to legal issues.

I do not think this is entirely true. There is corruption out there no doubt and that favors the wealthy and government associated members. Wealthy people go to prison all the time. Just ask Bernie Madoff. So do members of government and those associated with it. In contrast guilty plebs also get off on technicalities because of the rule of law.

As for the Cleveland cop gunning down this kid as I mentioned earlier in this thread I find the approach to be suspect. It would seem to me to turn in the street and pull towards the suspect with the hood of the car facing him and open doors using them as cover and demand hands up with guns drawn. At least they did not deploy a light infantry unit to neutralize this kid.

I Wear Pants;1681959 wrote:

Remember when a bunch of white dudes with semi-automatic weapons pointed them at Federal Agents and police and said they were willing to shoot to protect a dude who refused to pay for using public land?

How many of them got shot? Zero. How many were talking about how they were thugs or deserved to get shot for pointing guns at cops and agents? Not very many.

Totally different context. If that dude is alone in a public park pointing his weapon at random people and the cops roll up and he so much as flinches he is dead. Contrary to popular belief white dudes in this country also get killed by cops.

majorspark;1681970 wrote:I do not think this is entirely true. There is corruption out there no doubt and that favors the wealthy and government associated members. Wealthy people go to prison all the time. Just ask Bernie Madoff. So do members of government and those associated with it. In contrast guilty plebs also get off on technicalities because of the rule of law.

As for the Cleveland cop gunning down this kid as I mentioned earlier in this thread I find the approach to be suspect. It would seem to me to turn in the street and pull towards the suspect with the hood of the car facing him and open doors using them as cover and demand hands up with guns drawn. At least they did not deploy a light infantry unit to neutralize this kid.

Have there been any cases where they have done that? Like, have they ran anyone over with their APCs? I doubt it but that would be interesting.

majorspark;1681971 wrote:Totally different context. If that dude is alone in a public park pointing his weapon at random people and the cops roll up and he so much as flinches he is dead. Contrary to popular belief white dudes in this country also get killed by cops.

You seriously think if a bunch of black dudes used government land and refused to pay shit loads of money that they were required to that they would be able to pull off the shit Bundy did? "Let's call up my buddies and have them point loaded rifles at the cops and threaten to shoot them". The discourse alone would be radically different. You wouldn't have the douche Hannity calling them patriots, there'd be calls for the cops to get rid of these violent thugs, etc. And it would be justified because it's fucking stupid to do what Bundy did. It's just disappointing that the outcome isn't the same. Shit imagine if it were Sikh's or something (very unlikely but still, middle eastern looking people with guns? Death by drone).

You are right that white dudes get killed by cops too. Which I think happens too often as well. But black people do receive worse outcomes from our legal system for the same crimes.

I Wear Pants;1681959 wrote:

Yet another reason to question their judgement.

age has nothing to do with it. look at what happens when a cop doesn't want to shoot an old man.

[video=youtube_share;rgqrt67CP7U][/video]

I Wear Pants;1681972 wrote:Have there been any cases where they have done that? Like, have they ran anyone over with their APCs? I doubt it but that would be interesting.

Yes and against right wing nutbags.

I Wear Pants;1681972 wrote:You seriously think if a bunch of black dudes used government land and refused to pay shit loads of money that they were required to that they would be able to pull off the shit Bundy did? "Let's call up my buddies and have them point loaded rifles at the cops and threaten to shoot them". The discourse alone would be radically different. You wouldn't have the douche Hannity calling them patriots, there'd be calls for the cops to get rid of these violent thugs, etc. And it would be justified because it's fucking stupid to do what Bundy did. It's just disappointing that the outcome isn't the same. Shit imagine if it were Sikh's or something (very unlikely but still, middle eastern looking people with guns? Death by drone).

In that context yes. I think they would have more public support than you think.

The police did not gun down these guys:



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/21/black-open-carry-activists-protest-police-brutalit/

I Wear Pants;1681959 wrote: Related:


Remember when a bunch of white dudes with semi-automatic weapons pointed them at Federal Agents and police and said they were willing to shoot to protect a dude who refused to pay for using public land?

How many of them got shot? Zero. How many were talking about how they were thugs or deserved to get shot for pointing guns at cops and agents? Not very many.

<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><iframe style="display: none;" allowtransparency="true" scrolling="no" id="rufous-sandbox" frameborder="0"></iframe>

For the same reason LAPD doesn't just roll into neighborhoods in south central and start shooting everyone in sight.

I Wear Pants;1681972 wrote:Have there been any cases where they have done that? Like, have they ran anyone over with their APCs? I doubt it but that would be interesting.

Waco....Ruby Ridge....

I Wear Pants;1681972 wrote:Have there been any cases where they have done that? Like, have they ran anyone over with their APCs? I doubt it but that would be interesting.

Waco....Ruby Ridge....

Glory Days;1681978 wrote:For the same reason LAPD doesn't just roll into neighborhoods in south central and start shooting everyone in sight.

They don't go looking for a fight but if they were going to try to arrest someone or if they became involved in a confrontation do you think if it were pretty much anyone but a bunch of white dudes that the cops would have reacted in the same "well gee wiz, they seem angry and have guns. We better just let them do what they want" manner?

Glory Days;1681979 wrote:Waco....Ruby Ridge....

And those events resulted in the deaths of many innocent white people including young white children. But over zealous law enforcement is primarily used on black people. Just ask IWP.

I Wear Pants;1681981 wrote:They don't go looking for a fight but if they were going to try to arrest someone or if they became involved in a confrontation do you think if it were pretty much anyone but a bunch of white dudes that the cops would have reacted in the same "well gee wiz, they seem angry and have guns. We better just let them do what they want" manner?

I only found 2009 stats, but in 2009, LAPD had roughly 18,000 arrests and 880,000 contacts total with civilians. They had 42 police shootings. you would think according to the media the number would be in the thousands, not 42. 35 of those 42 times there was actually a gun present on the suspect.

majorspark;1681982 wrote:And those events resulted in the deaths of many innocent white people including young white children. But over zealous law enforcement is primarily used on black people. Just ask IWP.

I was 4 when Waco went down, forgive me for not remembering. Also it isn't immediately clear to me who is at fault by looking at the wikipedia.

Speaking of Germany....

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime

Germany has 25% more cops than the US. strange.....more cops, less crime?! I take it you are in favor of more cops IWP?

They also use 90% less drugs than the US. less drug use, less crime!?

They also have 448 times more drug offences than the US. more drug arrests and less crime? what is this, upside down land?

Glory Days;1681989 wrote:Speaking of Germany....

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime

Germany has 25% more cops than the US. strange.....more cops, less crime?! I take it you are in favor of more cops IWP?

They also use 90% less drugs than the US. less drug use, less crime!?

They also have 448 times more drug offences than the US. more drug arrests and less crime? what is this, upside down land?

More cops would be great in a lot of places. I like police just as much as other public services. I'm harder on police because we give them more power.

The drug use thing is valid but it can be better addressed when treated as a health issue rather than a criminal one. Drug use shouldn't be a crime until you actually commit a crime, as in harm someone or someone else. Until then it's a really stupid personal health choice. Like a million other things part of the solution is to stop the war on drugs.

WebFire;1681854 wrote:And I have yet to disagree the approach is questionable. What I don't understand is why people think that excused the suspects actions.

Nobody thinks it's an excuse for his actions. There is room for both parties to be wrong and held accountable.

Kid was menacing the park with a fake gun - deserved to be held accountable.
Cops make a reckless approach and end up killing an unarmed kid - deserve to be held accountable.

Glory Days;1681983 wrote:I only found 2009 stats, but in 2009, LAPD had roughly 18,000 arrests and 880,000 contacts total with civilians. They had 42 police shootings. you would think according to the media the number would be in the thousands, not 42. 35 of those 42 times there was actually a gun present on the suspect.

This. 18,000 arrests and MAYBE a handful of questionable shootings? Questionable as in mistakes or bad judgement, which is very different from the KKK lynchmob undertones being thrown around.

Nationwide estimates are 500-1000 deaths from cop shootings a year. Let's take the high estimate and call it 3 per day. There are something like 36,000 arrests nationwide every day. Considering most of those shootings are completely justified, we're talking like 6-sigma level of compliance here. Good enough for airplanes, but a "huge" problem with our police.

Glory Days;1681976 wrote:age has nothing to do with it. look at what happens when a cop doesn't want to shoot an old man.

[video=youtube_share;rgqrt67CP7U][/video]

I just meant that they thought a 12 year old boy was 20 years old while standing directly over him. I don't think they should have reacted differently to the gun because of his age. Young people or old people can pull a trigger too.

majorspark;1681977 wrote:Yes and against right wing nutbags.



In that context yes. I think they would have more public support than you think.

The police did not gun down these guys:



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/21/black-open-carry-activists-protest-police-brutalit/

Did they point their weapons at police to intimidate them into not collecting fines they owed? Doesn't appear like they did.

I still think it's a stupid thing for them to have done. Open carry demonstrations that I see are almost always used to scare people or make them uncomfortable which I don't think is a very just use of force. Black communities with violence problems don't need more guns in them. Though I don't imagine those rifles are the type used to commit much crime.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop-shot-12-year-fired-previous-job-firing-range-tempter-tantrum/

Sounds like a great officer for Cleveland to hire, good thing they did

KB0938;1682151 wrote:http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop-shot-12-year-fired-previous-job-firing-range-tempter-tantrum/

Sounds like a great officer for Cleveland to hire, good thing they did

That...is not good.

Zoltan;1682035 wrote:Nobody thinks it's an excuse for his actions. There is room for both parties to be wrong and held accountable.

Kid was menacing the park with a fake gun - deserved to be held accountable.
Cops make a reckless approach and end up killing an unarmed kid - deserve to be held accountable.

If the cops KNEW it was a fake gun, you would be correct. If they did not, then you are wrong.

jmog;1682175 wrote:If the cops KNEW it was a fake gun, you would be correct. If they did not, then you are wrong.

Most reasonable people, including actual police experts quoted in the article linked earlier, believe their approach was reckless. They screwed up, they should be held accountable.

Zoltan;1682197 wrote:Most reasonable people, including actual police experts quoted in the article linked earlier, believe their approach was reckless. They screwed up, they should be held accountable.

The approach with the car/proximity was not what I was disputing. I was disputing the part about "killing an unarmed kid". With the orange cap removed even a gun expert can not tell the difference from an airsoft pistol and a real pistol from even a couple feet.

100% of the evidence that the officers had was that the kid was armed with a pistol and had been pointing it at pedestrians walking by.

You can call into question their approach with the vehicle, but not the process of determining armed/unarmed. 100% of the information they knew was that the kid was armed and reaching for the weapon.

jmog;1682199 wrote:The approach with the car/proximity was not what I was disputing. I was disputing the part about "killing an unarmed kid". With the orange cap removed even a gun expert can not tell the difference from an airsoft pistol and a real pistol from even a couple feet.

100% of the evidence that the officers had was that the kid was armed with a pistol and had been pointing it at pedestrians walking by.

You can call into question their approach with the vehicle, but not the process of determining armed/unarmed. 100% of the information they knew was that the kid was armed and reaching for the weapon.

The final outcome was they killed an unarmed kid. Those are the facts. As I stated earlier, the questions is could it have been avoided? Their approach was their main chance to avoid it, and they screwed that up. The final outcome, killing an unarmed kid, had everything to do with their approach.

Zoltan;1682204 wrote:The final outcome was they killed an unarmed kid. Those are the facts. As I stated earlier, the questions is could it have been avoided? Their approach was their main chance to avoid it, and they screwed that up. They should be held accountable.

Cannot disagree. It wasnt like the MB case as he was beating up on the officer and charging at him.
Said before and will say again. Those cops very easily coulda used their car for cover, point their guns at him and if he took the weapon and started to point it at them....well.....