Cleveland the new Ferguson, MO?

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thavoice

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14,376 posts
Nov 26, 2014 5:11 PM
It still comes down to what do you do when the cops ask you to do something.
Had a real life scenario yesterday. My wife pulled out of a McDonalds yesterday. Seconds later was surrounded by State Highway patrol. They approach her with caution (smart guys) and ask to search her vehicle and BAC test. She complies even though she didnt do anything or give them a reason to.
Apparently what happened was a vehicle matching her description sideswiped a car, was driving erracticly and left the scene of the accident. It was apparent very quickly to them that it wasnt her, but she still complied to what they wanted. Some people would be just assholes and provoke the situation.
Nov 26, 2014 5:11pm
salto's avatar

salto

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2,611 posts
Nov 26, 2014 5:23 PM
SportsAndLady;1677885 wrote:Or teach them not to carry a toy gun in public.
ta da!

TedSheckler;1677887 wrote:Point realistic looking toy guns at people and you may end up getting shot with a real gun. Kid was dumb.

x2
Nov 26, 2014 5:23pm
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salto

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2,611 posts
Nov 26, 2014 5:25 PM
like_that;1677970 wrote:It's a waste of money for starters, and Id prefer police to do their job without worrying what big brother is going to do to them for their every little action.
The police officers have nothing to worry about if they follow the rules.
Nov 26, 2014 5:25pm
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HitsRus

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9,206 posts
Nov 26, 2014 5:43 PM
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/tamir-rice-shooitng-video-warning-cleveland-police-release-surveillance-video
That video link posted earlier tells only part of the story....
This is the FULL video released by CPD and shows the kid menacing a nearby person walking (police are trying to find this individual) and brandishing his realistic looking toy gun.....as the officers pull up to the scene he has the gun in his hand and it falls to the ground when they shoot him.... with both officers training their guns on him, one officer moves and kicks the "gun" away.

I have no doubt that the officers thought the gun was real.
Nov 26, 2014 5:43pm
T

thavoice

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14,376 posts
Nov 26, 2014 6:16 PM
HitsRus;1678899 wrote:http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/tamir-rice-shooitng-video-warning-cleveland-police-release-surveillance-video
That video link posted earlier tells only part of the story....
This is the FULL video released by CPD and shows the kid menacing a nearby person walking (police are trying to find this individual) and brandishing his realistic looking toy gun.....as the officers pull up to the scene he has the gun in his hand and it falls to the ground when they shoot him.... with both officers training their guns on him, one officer moves and kicks the "gun" away.

I have no doubt that the officers thought the gun was real.
How much you wanna bet they dont find that witness or the story gets changed?
No doubt they thought it was real, those things can look like the real deal.
I side with cops and authority most times and yeah, technically I guess they could be right this time with a person with a gun, but couldnt they stayed behind their car, behind cover, and try to get the kid to drop it before flanking him?
Nov 26, 2014 6:16pm
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HitsRus

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9,206 posts
Nov 26, 2014 6:34 PM
I don't have law enforcement training so I don't know what the correct procedure is. My limited firearms training tells me that if I feel the need to pull the trigger on someone, I'm going to shoot the neutralize the threat. Aiming to merely wound is a television fabrication, and shouting multiple warnings in a firearms standoff is a sure way to get killed.
Nov 26, 2014 6:34pm
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Glory Days

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7,809 posts
Nov 26, 2014 7:48 PM
Old Rider;1677972 wrote:Because there are too many cops that are just as corrupt as the criminals they are arresting. Also, if the cop screws up just slightly while making the arrest and the guy is found innocent or the case is dismissed...then the cop looks like the dumbass (on camera and mic'd) and maybe loses his job for it!
Define "too many". Because in reality, its a very very small number.
Nov 26, 2014 7:48pm
W

WebFire

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14,779 posts
Nov 26, 2014 7:56 PM
thavoice;1678907 wrote:How much you wanna bet they dont find that witness or the story gets changed?
No doubt they thought it was real, those things can look like the real deal.
I side with cops and authority most times and yeah, technically I guess they could be right this time with a person with a gun, but couldnt they stayed behind their car, behind cover, and try to get the kid to drop it before flanking him?
No. You don't hide behind something in hopes that the subject doesn't shoot you when they already have a gun in their hand. Unfortunately you can't really see the kid after the cruiser pulls up. Perhaps the kid was pointing/aiming the gun at him and hence the quick shooting.
Nov 26, 2014 7:56pm
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Glory Days

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Nov 26, 2014 7:58 PM
thavoice;1678893 wrote:Those cops could be in trouble. As I suspected, the cops had sufficient cover. There is no reason why they couldnt have stayed behind the vehicle and not shot until it was imminent the kid was gonna shoot. Looked pretty empty atthat place so there wasnt a ton of people around in danger
Sufficient cover? the kid was about 7-10 feet from the passenger side of the vehicle when they pulled up. the cop on the passenger side had ZERO cover.
Nov 26, 2014 7:58pm
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HitsRus

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Nov 26, 2014 8:12 PM
When you look at the video , after the kid is shot, you can see the gun lying on the ground to his right.... So he had to have had it drawn.
Nov 26, 2014 8:12pm
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like_that

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Nov 26, 2014 9:30 PM
salto;1678897 wrote:The police officers have nothing to worry about if they follow the rules.
Except for the pr disaster when they legally kill somebody (aka Darren Wilson). Nice fail.


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Nov 26, 2014 9:30pm
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ZWICK 4 PREZ

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7,733 posts
Nov 26, 2014 9:37 PM
Why do you pull up 10 feet from someone you know has a gun? Idiotic to me.
Nov 26, 2014 9:37pm
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majorspark

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5,122 posts
Nov 26, 2014 9:56 PM
ZWICK 4 PREZ;1678933 wrote:Why do you pull up 10 feet from someone you know has a gun? Idiotic to me.
I thought this as well. It would seem to me you turn in the street with the hood of your vehicle facing the suspect and exit using your open doors as cover and demand hands in the air from that vantage point.
Nov 26, 2014 9:56pm
W

WebFire

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14,779 posts
Nov 26, 2014 9:57 PM
ZWICK 4 PREZ;1678933 wrote:Why do you pull up 10 feet from someone you know has a gun? Idiotic to me.
I wondered that too. If anything was to be pointed out as a mistake by the officers it would be this.
Nov 26, 2014 9:57pm
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ZWICK 4 PREZ

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Nov 26, 2014 10:07 PM
Well the fact you pulled up 10 ft from the kid and shot him immediately just gave the defense all the ammunition it needs to say that you already had no doubt in your mind that you were going to shoot this kid.
Nov 26, 2014 10:07pm
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WebFire

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Nov 26, 2014 10:15 PM
ZWICK 4 PREZ;1678941 wrote:Well the fact you pulled up 10 ft from the kid and shot him immediately just gave the defense all the ammunition it needs to say that you already had no doubt in your mind that you were going to shoot this kid.
Not really. If have the intent to shoot someone you still wouldn't pull right up next to them and put yourself in danger's way. I would almost think the opposite. The fact they did makes it seem like the weren't expecting to see what they did and had to react accordingly.
Nov 26, 2014 10:15pm
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ZWICK 4 PREZ

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Nov 26, 2014 10:20 PM
WebFire;1678945 wrote:Not really. If have the intent to shoot someone you still wouldn't pull right up next to them and put yourself in danger's way. I would almost think the opposite. The fact they did makes it seem like the weren't expecting to see what they did and had to react accordingly.
Oh bullshit. They knew he had a gun and pulled up to him with guns drawn and fired immediately. If they weren't expecting it then guns wouldn't have been drawn.
Nov 26, 2014 10:20pm
W

WebFire

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Nov 26, 2014 10:22 PM
ZWICK 4 PREZ;1678946 wrote:Oh bullshit. They knew he had a gun and pulled up to him with guns drawn and fired immediately. If they weren't expecting it then guns wouldn't have been drawn.
I still don't think you would pull right up on him like that. Too easy for him to shoot you. And then why would you bother getting out first?

IDK, makes no sense to me.
Nov 26, 2014 10:22pm
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ZWICK 4 PREZ

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Nov 26, 2014 10:26 PM
Bc he didn't have his gun in his hand. They did. They had upper hand.
Nov 26, 2014 10:26pm
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shook_17

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3,023 posts
Nov 26, 2014 10:26 PM
HitsRus;1678910 wrote:I don't have law enforcement training so I don't know what the correct procedure is. My limited firearms training tells me that if I feel the need to pull the trigger on someone, I'm going to shoot the neutralize the threat. Aiming to merely wound is a television fabrication, and shouting multiple warnings in a firearms standoff is a sure way to get killed.
This is what pisses me off with some people. (Not saying you're one) uneducated people say oh police should just shoot to wound not shoot to kill. WRONG. We/they are trained to neutralize the threat.
Nov 26, 2014 10:26pm
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WebFire

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Nov 26, 2014 10:28 PM
ZWICK 4 PREZ;1678949 wrote:Bc he didn't have his gun in his hand. They did. They had upper hand.
Gun had to be in his hand. It fell to the ground when he was shot.
Nov 26, 2014 10:28pm
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ZWICK 4 PREZ

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Nov 26, 2014 10:38 PM
WebFire;1678951 wrote:Gun had to be in his hand. It fell to the ground when he was shot.
Not when they rolled up to him.
Nov 26, 2014 10:38pm
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WebFire

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Nov 26, 2014 10:57 PM
ZWICK 4 PREZ;1678956 wrote:Not when they rolled up to him.
I watched it again and paid closer attention to detail. It does appear he reaches for his waistband when the officer exits the car. So it seems you would be right that he did not have the gun in his hand when they pulled up. It does also seem the officer had his gun drawn once he exited. You can't see it, so we only make assumptions on when exactly he drew. I still have no idea why they pulled up like that. That makes no sense to me no matter the circumstance or any intentions.
Nov 26, 2014 10:57pm
salto's avatar

salto

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Nov 27, 2014 12:28 AM
like_that;1678931 wrote:Except for the pr disaster when they legally kill somebody (aka Darren Wilson). Nice fail.


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You originally said -
like_that;1677970 wrote:It's a waste of money for starters, and Id prefer police to do their job without worrying what big brother is going to do to them for their every little action.
What DW did is a "little action"?

If the cop (DW) would of had a video camera on in the shooting, the same outcome (riots) would happen?


mmhmm.

"Nice fail"
Nov 27, 2014 12:28am
I

I Wear Pants

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Nov 27, 2014 1:32 AM
WebFire;1678958 wrote:I watched it again and paid closer attention to detail. It does appear he reaches for his waistband when the officer exits the car. So it seems you would be right that he did not have the gun in his hand when they pulled up. It does also seem the officer had his gun drawn once he exited. You can't see it, so we only make assumptions on when exactly he drew. I still have no idea why they pulled up like that. That makes no sense to me no matter the circumstance or any intentions.
Seems like if the kid was actually a violent person with a gun that the cop would have been fucked.
Nov 27, 2014 1:32am